Official: No Hammers. No Pagans. No Keepers. - by thiefinthedark
SneakyJack on 18/6/2013 at 03:38
I'm going to miss The Hammers most of all - but as someone mentioned previously their presence in Thief 2 was very small anyway. They're used to great effect in Thief 2 fan missions but being that we're discussing actual games in the series that doesn't really apply. I'm also really going to miss The Mechanists. Their robotics added a new layer to the strategy of looting areas and I found their use of steam powered technology interesting. Hopefully the new game will have a similar replacement. At least there will be references even if they're only there to allow us to say 'at least there are references.'
The keepers I personally never really got into. They are a cool little secret society and I know they are important in Thief lore but they never really did anything for me nor was I really interested during their story sections. Same with the Pagans. Not a bad faction at all but I never really found them all that interesting and most of their levels had bugs and ents or whatever and non human enemies (I do dig the robots and steam powered enemies though) are low on the list of things I care about in Thief games.
I don't remember where each of these factions were in Thief 3 because I unfortunately don't remember much about that game being that I didn't really get into it during my playthrough so I'm pretty open to seeing what the new factions have to offer. Before I write them off I'd like to see how they fit into the story and how they are portrayed by the voice actors.
Renzatic on 18/6/2013 at 03:40
Quote Posted by Chade
Still, that does leave open the question of what place does religion hold in the new city?
It was easy to see how religion would work without mechanists in thief 3's city: just fall back to using hammers! It's not so easy to see how religion will work in thief 4's city with no hammers: will they have a new religious order, or will they ignore religion entirely? At this stage I'm guessing they'll ignore religion entirely, and that would be a shame.
They, along with any other religion, could've been outlawed by the new Baron. That'd make sense to me, considering he's coming across as a complete despot and tyrant from what we've seen thus far, jealous for control of the entire city. The Hammerites could be brought down to nothing but a small sub-sect of a new faction, or the occasional crazy doomsayer preaching on the side of the street about the plague being the end of the world.
There are tons of ways you could spin the fiction without including them directly. All we can do is hope EM is clever enough to do something interesting with the lore of the previous games to do something cool here.
Considering how indepth they were with the lore and history in DX:HR, I'd say it's very possible we'll see something interesting.
Chade on 18/6/2013 at 03:48
Quote Posted by Renzatic
[The Hammerites] could've been outlawed by the new Baron ... brought down to nothing but a small sub-sect of a new faction, or the occasional crazy doomsayer preaching on the side of the street about the plague being the end of the world.
That would make sense to me, and that's more-or-less what I've been hoping ever since we first heard that there wouldn't be a Hammer faction.
However, Stephanie Roy's quote that kickstarted this thread makes me think that there are literally no Hammerite people remaining. Strictly speaking, he didn't actually say that, but it was the most strongly worded statement yet.
Vae on 18/6/2013 at 03:48
Wow...you guys are going to hate yourselves in the morning.
Quote Posted by Renzatic
Considering how indepth they were with the lore and history in DX:HR, I'd say it's very possible we'll see something interesting.
DX:HR was a
prequel...not a
reinvention of the DX Universe...and therefore kept congruity.
Keep goin'...I'm lovin' this...:ebil:
Chade on 18/6/2013 at 03:55
Hey Vae, there's this little concept called "nuance".
There are many different ways something can be reinvented. At this stage, we only know the broad outlines of what EM are doing with the thief fiction.
Renzatic on 18/6/2013 at 03:56
Quote Posted by Vae
DX:HR was a
prequel...not a reinvention of the DX Universe...and therefore kept congruity.
Keep goin"...I'm lovin" this...:ebil:
DX:HR was as much a reinvention of of that series as Thief will be for...er...Thief. The style, pace of technology, everything is out of whack when you compare it to what was seen in the original Deus Ex. It's a retcon starting from scratch, rather than making assumed changes after the fact.
thiefinthedark on 18/6/2013 at 04:06
Quote Posted by Renzatic
DX:HR was as much a reinvention of of that series as Thief will be for...er...Thief. The style, pace of technology, everything is out of whack when you compare it to what was seen in the original Deus Ex. It's a retcon starting from scratch, rather than making assumed changes after the fact.
I mean, to be fair, it was always in the Deus Ex backstory that there was a huge golden age in the 2020's followed by a global collapse that gutted things. I think EM took a bit too much creative license when interpreting how far that golden age went technologically (eg: mechanical augs were clearly way out of wack with what Deus Ex featured 60 years after HR), but they still stuck relatively (to NuThief) close to the original canon.
Vae on 18/6/2013 at 04:17
Yep...Those had to do with tech incongruities, because the DX Universe is an alternate Earth universe, and so tech adjustments were made according to a more recent understanding of emerging technology...Such a correction is not applicable between THIEF and NuThief, and so this is an unfair comparison.
Renault on 18/6/2013 at 04:43
I think the difficult thing to accept here is that by wiping out all of the existing factions, it starts to feel less and less like a Thief game. The primary faction in all the previous Thief games changed from game to game, but the others still remained in the background to support the world. Even though we only saw one or two Hammers in T2, it was enough to know they were still around in some form (and truth be told, there was a full mission slated for Thief 2 Gold that would have been Hammerite-centric). Pagans and Keepers existed to some degree in all of the games. The Downwinders, the Wardens, and several Nobles were mentioned periodically to keep the underworld theme going throughout the series too. New factions like the Mechanists and The Kurshok were introduced, but the other stuff was still there in the background to back it up.
Now by erasing all of the that, the game loses some of it's identity. If one is missing, no big deal. But if it's all gone and replaced, is it still Thief? Is Garrett navigating through The City enough?
I'm a big Star Wars fan too (hello Fett), and there are certain things that just define something as Star Wars. You don't need Han, Leia, Luke, or even the Rebellion or the Empire, but you do need The Force, lightsabers, and Jedi Knights. Some things are just too core to the franchise to eliminate.
Renzatic on 18/6/2013 at 04:44
Quote Posted by thiefinthedark
I mean, to be fair, it was always in the Deus Ex backstory that there was a huge golden age in the 2020's followed by a global collapse that gutted things. I think EM took a bit too much creative license when interpreting how far that golden age went technologically (eg: mechanical augs were clearly way out of wack with what Deus Ex featured 60 years after HR), but they still stuck relatively (to NuThief) close to the original canon.
It's still a reimagining in most aspects. It pays heed to the history of the series, but isn't bound by it entirely. HR was EM's take on Deus Ex, and they were doing their own thing for the most part.
Thief could be doing something similar. Paying heed to the things done in the previous games, but rewriting them to fit their own take on the series. Think of it as a "what if" novel. What if Garrett bailed on the Keepers sooner? What if Garrett didn't kill The Trickster? What if Garrett didn't ally with Victoria to take down the Mechanists? They're still following along with the basic plot of the first three games, but they're changing things around, putting their own spin on it.
I prefer it this way because, first of all, Garrett's story was done and over with by the end of Thief 3. They could've continued the series with the little girl, or maybe Garrett's life as the One True Keeper, but that'd seem kinda forced to me. They'd be trying to continue someone else's already meticulously detailed and satisfactorily concluded story. They could've made a prequel a'la DX, but that would've been boring and probably more damaging to the canon than what we're getting now. There's nothing in the games or backstory that says Garrett was doing anything more wild than stealing from people to pay his rent during that time. If he went on some crazy adventure to save The City before The Dark Project, everyone around here would be howling for blood moreso than they are now.
In my opinion, a reboot is the better move to make. You keep The City, you get a new take on all the old characters, and it gives EM more freedom to play around with things and stretch their legs a bit creatively.
Quote Posted by Brethren
I'm a big Star Wars fan too (hello Fett), and there are certain things that just define something as Star Wars. You don't need Han, Leia, Luke, or even the Rebellion or the Empire, but you do need The Force, lightsabers, and Jedi Knights. Some things are just too core to the franchise to eliminate.
See, I don't think they're writing the old factions out of history. They're just no longer the central focus of the plot. Like if (more like when) someone makes a new Star Wars series, and has the Imperial Remnant floating around in the background for continuity. You see them on occasion, along with old, abandoned Galactic Empire outposts, but they don't have anything major to do with the story beyond that.
It's like the House of Blossoms being built inside an old Keeper Library. The Keepers were obviously around at some point. They're just not around for this (reimagined) chapter.
