Official: No Hammers. No Pagans. No Keepers. - by thiefinthedark
operativex on 9/7/2013 at 21:24
Quote Posted by Chade
Seriously? What about dynamic shadows and better AI? We're talking about significant upgrades to two of the three game mechanics that together make up 95% of the gameplay in thief.
(Personally I think dynamic shadows alone are worth more then rope arrows and swimmable water and all the other little stuff decorating the edges of the core stealth gameplay.)
More controversially, I'd say the free-roaming bug section was a nice addition, as much as it could have been done better, and I'd place the story and atmosphere above thief 2. Finally, some of the missions are up there with the best in the series.
I agree with you Chade 100%
What I felt the upgrades were:
-Climbing Gloves
-City Hubs
-Ability to put out candles
-Sticking to Walls
-More useful economy
-Ability to help different factions
-Side Missions
-And in a few instances select which mission to begin first
Obviously it had it's downfalls, but someone asked for the improvements and here they are.
Starker on 9/7/2013 at 21:35
Quote Posted by Chade
Seriously?
Well, dynamic shadows were nice, I'll give you that. Worth the exploration that swimming and rope arrows provided, though?
The AI thing was a bit ruined for me with the spontaneous fights breaking out on the streets and all.
Didn't care for the free-roaming sections one bit.
I found the levels really tiny and cramped compared to the sprawling levels of the first games. I could get lost in those.
Edit: oh, and don't agree one bit about the stories and atmosphere. T2 may have had its problems, but T3 was not exactly a masterpiece.
Quote Posted by operativex
Now this is just an underhanded insult at EM making them sound like clumsy fools.
No, this is an argument against cynical homogenisation in hopes of appealing to focus groups.
Chade on 9/7/2013 at 21:54
Starker, you can split the AI changes into pieces, and like or dislike individual pieces. AI fighting in the street wasn't great (although I liked the climax), but there were AI changes that had nothing to do with that. For instance, they would respond to more stimulus. This was most noticeable in Weldstrom museum.
As for levels, well ... yeah, but you specifically asked about upgrades.
Vae on 9/7/2013 at 21:56
Quote Posted by operativex
-Climbing Gloves
The Climbing Gloves diminished free-roaming capability...Downgrade.
There was only one City Hub...which diminished mystery, and made a mockery of the stature of The City...Downgrade.
Quote:
-Ability to put out candles
A negligible improvement.
An unnecessary mechanic, which circumvented the "Hiding Challenge"...Downgrade.
Quote:
-More useful economy
The economy in TDS was imbalanced, and effectively overpowered the player...Downgrade.
Quote:
-Ability to help different factions
This ultimately meaningless mechanic was easily exploited, and trivialized Garrett's relationship with the factions...Downgrade.
Side Missions were equivalent to side objectives in T1/T2. Only, the ones in TDS were less interesting...Downgrade.
Quote:
-And in a few instances select which mission to begin first
Although the idea of non-linear mission ordering has merit, the execution in TDS was poorly done and inconsequential.
Quote:
Obviously it had it's downfalls, but someone asked for the improvements and here they are.
:laff:..Think again.
Starker on 9/7/2013 at 22:01
Quote Posted by Chade
Starker, you can split the AI changes into pieces, and like or dislike individual pieces.
Well, I don't remember anything striking out to me as distinctly better when I was playing the game. I guess when you take the games down to components and analyse them piece by piece, you could come up with a list of improvements.
operativex on 9/7/2013 at 22:22
Quote Posted by Vae
The Climbing Gloves diminished free-roaming capability...Downgrade.
Climbing gloves diminished free-roaming capability? What the taff are you talking about. It extended city exploration to every stone-covered wall in the game.
Quote:
There was only one City Hub...which diminished mystery, and made a mockery of the stature of The City...Downgrade.
Well obviously they can't build The City brick-for-brick -- that's just impractical. For what it was (a chance to explore a few districts in The City and add some exploration), it was a welcomed addition by many. I think you are in the minority on this one.
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A negligible improvement.
An improvement is an improvement. Personally, immediately after playing T2 again last week then jumping back into T3, I felt this was a godsend.
Quote:
An unnecessary mechanic, which circumvented the "Hiding Challenge"...Downgrade.
You think it's
unnecessary to flatten-up your body against a wall to hide deeper into the shadows... in a stealth game? Was it a little too effective? Sure, I'll buy that. But, if tweaked properly for balance, is a fantastic new weapon in our arsenal for hiding in the shadows.
Quote:
The economy in TDS was imbalanced, and effectively overpowered the player...Downgrade.
And T1/T2's economy wasn't? It gave you free supplies for taffing out loud. T3 might have made me slightly overpowered, but I did find myself robbing more citizens, homes, etc actively seeking loot to refill my supplies regardless of how overpowered I became. I find that a huge improvement over T1/T2's economy because I had to
at least work to be OP. In T1/T2 I stole because I had to meet a criteria. In T3, I stole to stay ahead of the game.
Quote:
This ultimately meaningless mechanic was easily exploited, and trivialized Garrett's relationship with the factions...Downgrade.
Meaningless? Definitely not. My Hammerite brethren came through for me when I had to face the Enforcers and made that section a lot easier.
Exploited? Possibly. I actually felt rewarded as my efforts paid off to get in good with the Hammerites tbh.
Trivialized? Sure. It wasn't implemented in the best possible way (really nothing in T3 had proper polish) but it was a cool addition none the less.
Quote:
Side Missions were equivalent to side objectives in T1/T2. Only, the ones in TDS were less interesting...Downgrade.
To each their own.
Quote:
Although the idea of non-linear mission ordering has merit, the execution in TDS was poorly done and inconsequential.
I felt it made a difference. I personally hate the Pagan levels and appreciate the fact I could choose the Hammerite mission first before the Jacknal Paw.
Quote:
:laff:..Think again.
You don't have to agree with me, it's all just my opinion.
Hamadriyad on 10/7/2013 at 17:14
Quote Posted by operativex
You guys are worse than most video game publishers. While EM strives to do something new and different, all you guys bitch and moan about anything that isn't identical to the previous Thief games. I'm surprised nobody is complaining about Thief being on UE3 rather than Dark Engine. Thank god creative types like EM, Christopher Nolan, Zack Snyder, J.J. Abrams, etc ignore the fans. Otherwise, every new iteration of a property would be the same.
Although I would like references to the previous factions, I respect EM's decision to do something new and surprise me. I'm hungry for new interesting characters/factions/experiences as opposed to rehashing the past.
How can I respect EM If EM don't respect fans? What I see here so far is not a Thief game, it is an abomination. Id doesn't have to be the same, you can be different and new without altering things.
If they ignore fans, then why make a Thief game in the first place?
New factions seem interesting to you? The Baron (which is not a faction) and a rebel group called Graven. Sounds pretty boring.
Snyder is ok but Abrams and Nolan? Meh. (Nolan is a good director but Batman movies suck as an adaptation, third one sucks as a movie too.)
nickie on 10/7/2013 at 17:23
I think the rebel group is called Raven. I must admit I thought I heard Graven somewhere but I think I was mistaken.
Vae on 10/7/2013 at 17:24
The would be rebel group is called "Graven".
nickie on 10/7/2013 at 17:26
Is it? In that case I'm not deaf. Great! I have seen Raven written somewhere though.
