Official: No Hammers. No Pagans. No Keepers. - by thiefinthedark
Gabucino on 18/6/2013 at 19:16
Hi taffers.
Why do you argue this much about Thief 4? It's a child of the current age (Assassin's Creed, console audience), not the good old hardcore PC nineties.
It will be like Mass Effect 3 was to Mass Effect.
It will be like Dragon Age 2 was to Dragon Age.
It will be like Silent Hunter 5 was to Silent Hunter 3.
Thief 3 was also an abomination, but some factors could salvage it. But as you well know, the fate of games went downhill from there.
Thief 4 will have nothing similar to Thief. If it did, the target audience mentioned beforehand would - supposedly - not buy it.
As long as the current tendency of more and more "casualized" "AAA" titles doesn't stop, there is no hope for the emergence of a proper Thief sequel which maintains the "air" of the original game.
TL;DR: a real Thief game can only be born in an environment fit for it. Like Looking Glass, like the '90s. Not today.
Full disclosure: I pretty much <a href="http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=140197&page=2&p=2153888#post2153888">like Dishonored</a>. I found it to be the first step out of this console-ish murk that games currently live in.
Fandango on 18/6/2013 at 19:16
Are there no Zelda fans in this thread? Each Zelda game has a protagonist named Link and they re-use a bunch of character names and ideas, but there's no direct continuation between each iteration. The factions disappear, the geography of Hyrule always changes, but at the end of the day it always feels like a Zelda game and the quality is (almost) always high.
I believe it is totally possible to create a great Thief game without Hammerites or Mechanists and a new City, new Garrett, etc...
It is of course still up to the new devs to prove they can do that, however we shouldn't automatically disqualify their attempt just because it doesn't exactly fit into the established universe.
Hell, comic books fans have been putting up with their established canon being decimated via movies and tv shows for decades now. We Thief fans can survive this too.
Queue on 18/6/2013 at 19:35
Quote Posted by Fandango
I believe it is totally possible to create a great Thief game without Hammerites or Mechanists and a new City, new Garrett, etc....
I...actually agree with that, Fandango. At least, mostly. It's totally possible, if it's done well. We won't know if it was done well until the release, and there are some aspects that I believe - from what has been shown - that border on laughable. But the absence of Hammerites or Mechanists, in the end, means nothing.
Not every Batman movie has to have the Joker in it.
thiefinthedark on 18/6/2013 at 20:03
Quote Posted by Fandango
Are there no Zelda fans in this thread? Each Zelda game has a protagonist named Link and they re-use a bunch of character names and ideas, but there's no direct continuation between each iteration. The factions disappear, the geography of Hyrule always changes, but at the end of the day it always feels like a Zelda game and the quality is (almost) always high.
I believe it is totally possible to create a great Thief game without Hammerites or Mechanists and a new City, new Garrett, etc...
It is of course still up to the new devs to prove they can do that, however we shouldn't automatically disqualify their attempt just because it doesn't exactly fit into the established universe.
Hell, comic books fans have been putting up with their established canon being decimated via movies and tv shows for decades now. We Thief fans can survive this too.
As a Zelda fan you should be aware that each game fits into the timeline of the world of Hyrule. While many are not direct sequels, each game references events that have occurred in the past in a mythological fashion and the concept of a reincarnated "Hero of Time" is a key story element. Zelda has a strong and established universe, so strong that they just published a (
http://www.amazon.com/The-Legend-Zelda-Hyrule-Historia/dp/1616550414) 300 page hardback outlining the entire Mythos in detail.
Zelda has never, and I doubt will ever, explicitly retcon the entirety of the series in the way EM has decided to.
Fandango on 18/6/2013 at 20:25
Quote Posted by thiefinthedark
As a Zelda fan you should be well aware that each game fits into an overall timeline of the world of Hyrule. While they are not direct sequels, each game references events that have occured in the past in a mythological fashion and the "Hero of Time" is a key element. Zelda has a strong and established universe, so strong that they just published a (
http://www.amazon.com/The-Legend-Zelda-Hyrule-Historia/dp/1616550414) 300 page hardback outlining the entire Mythos in detail.
Zelda has never, and I doubt will ever, explicitely retcon the entirety of the series in the way EM has decided to.
I am aware of this. The official timeline seems like some hand wavey attempt at consistency that they threw in as an afterthought. It even involves parallel inconsistent universes.
The games feel like independent stories in different, yet similar, worlds. I don't feel that the book adds or takes anything away from that.
Renzatic on 18/6/2013 at 20:38
Yup. The Zelda series doesn't have what I'd consider a coherent story across the entire series. Considering each game takes place hundreds of years before or after the other games, they can do whatever they want and claim it's all related.
Starker on 19/6/2013 at 04:44
Quote Posted by Chade
I'm expecting to have good reasons for the disappearance of the hammers, much like there good reasons for the mechanists to disappear, and I'm expecting the new city to be a coherent piece of fiction with lots going on, with or without the hammers.
Inline Image:
http://images.wikia.com/x-files/images/archive/d/d2/20081011034612!I_Want_to_Believe_UFO_poster.jpgQuote Posted by SneakyJack
The keepers I personally never really got into. They are a cool little secret society and I know they are important in Thief lore but they never really did anything for me nor was I really interested during their story sections.
They were cool when they were actually secret and mysterious.
Never Explain Anything.
-- Lovecraft
Quote Posted by Brethren
I'm a big Star Wars fan too (hello Fett), and there are certain things that just define something as Star Wars. You don't need Han, Leia, Luke, or even the Rebellion or the Empire, but you do need The Force, lightsabers, and Jedi Knights. Some things are just too core to the franchise to eliminate.
Thief needs a reboot like Star Wars needs Midi-chlorians.
Quote Posted by Shinrazero
So many apologists, those who think they are high in mighty in their acceptance of the new direction of the game. So
open minded. Great! you're able to find acceptance in all the changes. What I don't think is great is how anyone that expresses dislike for what they are seeing are automatically dismissed. Anyone can go back a page or two in this thread and see what I'm talking about. I've been called an idiot, muppet, fanatic, twat, just to name a few, all because I disagree with the direction of the game and that's just me. I've seen others endure far worse, with minimal intervention. Astonishingly, supporters are seemingly free to insult, put down, and rudely dismiss the voice of opposition as mindless rabble. :mad:
That has been my experience as well. :(
Chade on 19/6/2013 at 04:53
Quote Posted by Starker
I [Chade] want to believe
Pretty sure you won't find any evidence either way. In the absence of evidence, I tend to be a glass-half-full kinda guy.
Starker on 19/6/2013 at 04:57
Quote Posted by Chade
Pretty sure you won't find any evidence either way. In the absence of evidence, I tend to be a glass-half-full kinda guy.
Oh, I believe that the glass will be half-full, but I question the content.
antihero276 on 19/6/2013 at 10:40
Annnnnnd that's another major kick to the groin from the dev's... they really do like to hit while we're down, don't they? The idea of turning the story of Thief into politics and tyranny, poor vs rich, is something we have seen a million times in every faucet of fiction and non fiction... it reeks of bad fanfiction as well. Now Nugarrett will be sending 'catch me if you can letters to the press', and will become a one eyed Robin Hood, a folk hero to the poor who will recite poetry and sing ballads of his struggles on behalf of the common man, he will save helpless maidens being held at sword point in the alleys while the City Watch of Nottingham hunts him, his partner in crime Basso, and their pet bird Jenivere. Gone are the days of magic, of steampunk and medieval technology and architcture, gods, the undead... and about every other thing of interest. The faction's central to the city have been erased, and replaced by mere lip service for the fans... as if that is enough. The game did not have to be entirely about Hammerites, Pagans or Keepers... but in removing them, it is merely another furious rubbing of an eraser upon the canon. I'm loving you more by the minute Eidos Montreal... what can you possibly do next to top this? :sly:
