Muzman on 2/7/2008 at 14:48
Quote Posted by Starrfall
That's only a problem if you believe the position is untenable. Lots of people don't!
I'd love to hear him reconcile the line drawn between one type of heinous crime and another ("well, this drooling psychopath over here might be handy with the powertools, but he never touched any kids"). Still, that is what we do I guess, draw lines. (This all puts me in the 'political expediency for a revenge minded populace over highly emotive issue' camp)
Kolya on 2/7/2008 at 14:52
Quote Posted by Starrfall
Right, the decisions are made to punish people for doing terrible things. But you can try to make it less terrible by avoiding the realities of the crime if you want, I guess.
And who in the name of christ are you even referring to in the second half of that post?
They're not made to punish the people either, but to uphold the law which is the state's only interest in the matter.
You said everyone with children would take that stance, no matter how liberal they are. Sounds like an automatism that would affect death penalty adversaries as well, once they get children.
Thirith on 2/7/2008 at 14:55
Quote Posted by Kolya
And if you're against the death penalty for ethical reasons but want to make an exception for child rapists because you have children - then maybe your ethics were worthless to begin with.
I think it's valid to be of the opinion that the death penalty shouldn't be applied except in extreme cases (e.g. mass murder, rape and murder of children, sadistic murder with no sign of remorse). I myself oppose the death penalty 100%, but I don't think that people who oppose it
except for extreme cases are automatically morally bankrupt hypocrites.
However, I do think that a conditional death penalty is risky, since the evil of such acts cannot be quantified. You cannot say that if someone commits a crime that scores 10'000 (or more) Points of Absolute Evil, they may be put to death; you can't calculate these things. This will always be a matter of personal interpretation. And what one judge or jury may look at as a crime worthy of CP, another may not. To some extent, it becomes arbitrary. And I believe that justice should avoid arbitrariness as much as humanly possible.
Stitch on 2/7/2008 at 15:00
Quote Posted by Starrfall
Clever of him to set it up three years ago, then!
Exactly. While I disagree with his stance, it's entirely consistent with his history regarding the matter (as is his support for involving churches in local community building).
Quote Posted by Starrfall
He has young daughters. I would expect anyone with young kids to take this position, no matter how liberal they otherwise are.
Plenty of people against the death penalty have kids.
Kolya on 2/7/2008 at 15:04
Quote Posted by Thirith
I think it's valid to be of the opinion that the death penalty shouldn't be applied except in extreme cases
Depends on the reasons why you are against death penalty. If your ethics is that killing a human being is wrong, because everyone has an imprescriptible right to live, you cannot make up special cases.
Epos Nix on 2/7/2008 at 15:06
...and sometimes people sentenced to die are later found out to be innocent.
Thirith on 2/7/2008 at 15:10
Quote Posted by Kolya
Depends on the reasons why you are against death penalty. If your ethics is that killing a human being is wrong, because everyone has an imprescriptible right to live, you cannot make up special cases.
True, but at least in the Obama quote given earlier in the thread, it seems that Obama mainly is against the death penalty because it doesn't deter criminals. If he believes that all human beings have the right to life and nothing can change that, then he's inconsistent, yes.
Starrfall on 2/7/2008 at 15:44
Quote Posted by Kolya
They're not made to punish the people either, but to uphold the law which is the state's only interest in the matter.
You said everyone with children would take that stance, no matter how liberal they are. Sounds like an automatism that would affect death penalty adversaries as well, once they get children.
They're called
penal codes for a reason.
While I appreciate the prophetic power you give my words, I didn't say they would, I said I'd expect them to. My expectations do occasionally fail to match up with reality and I don't think it's objectively wrong to be against the death penalty.
But I also think a large number of the people who are against it are people who have the luxury of a life of isolation from and desensitization to violent crime. And I think if they gave more thought to the actual ramifications of such crimes they would be more willing to accept the death penalty in serious cases. And I think that having a child is one of the things that often makes people give these things more thought.
It's not inconsistent to modify an opinion upon receipt of new information.
Thirith on 2/7/2008 at 16:01
Quote Posted by Starrfall
They're called
penal codes for a reason.
Well, imprisonment for life isn't exactly a holiday in the sun. Especially if you're in prison for something like, say, rape of a minor, you've hardly got a great time ahead of you. Regardless of what you may think about the death sentence and prison sentences, both are punitive.
Quote:
But I also think a large number of the people who are against it are people who have the luxury of a life of isolation from and desensitization to violent crime. And I think if they gave more thought to the actual ramifications of such crimes they would be more willing to accept the death penalty in serious cases. And I think that having a child is one of the things that often makes people give these things more thought.
It's not inconsistent to modify an opinion upon receipt of new information.
True, but the change in opinion in such cases is usually based more on emotions than on reason. And while I think the emotions involved are very valid, I honestly don't think that a legal system should be based on strong emotions. Some people get furious at theft or at someone keying their car or at a man fucking another man. Furious enough to think that these people deserve death. I'm glad I don't live in a country where laws are there first and foremost to satisfy emotional needs.
And there are people who have suffered horrible crimes and nevertheless forgive those guilty, or at the very least don't feel that they deserve death at the hands of the state. It's not just bleeding heart liberals such as myself who oppose the death penalty. (But I understand people who think it is justified in certain cases, even though I don't agree with them.)
Muzman on 2/7/2008 at 16:13
Capital punishment is so ethically and legally problematic that most of the western world got rid of it forty years ago. It's only political desires that brought it back, ones happy to take the votes of the angry over more practical considerations. It's just too damn easy a political crutch to pass up I guess. Strangely we and the poms have managed to resist the poll points that are waiting for someone, despite no shortage of heinous crimes and loud calls for its return on occasion (probably other places too). It's curious.
