Renault on 30/7/2013 at 14:26
Quote Posted by henke
Except that it'll be a game about a thief named Garrett who just wants to make ends meet but somehow ends up getting involved in a bigger conspiracy, and it's set in a fantasy-steampunk setting known as The City. But yeah, aside from that, it'll have nothing at all to do with the earlier games. :rolleyes:
Well, if you take out the "fantasy-steampunk" setting (it's going to be more pre-industrial/victorian this time) and the fact that this Garrett is quite different that the previous one (different voice, appearance, attitude), then things are getting pretty thin, aren't they? Well at least there's...The City...
Quote Posted by henke
Jesus Christ, people. A good sequel, or reboot, isn't made by just running down a checklist of things that were in the previous entry. If burricks and Keepers are not relevant to the story of this new game, then there is no reason for them to be in the game.
The checklist thing does kind of apply though, if you're going to call it Thief and then claim you're "honoring the DNA" of the original series. Burricks are pretty minor, but if you consider the omission of the old factions, lack of freedom of movement, and removing Stephen Russell's voice, you're detouring fairly significantly from the originals.
Chade on 30/7/2013 at 14:40
Quote Posted by Vae
No, hence the Elemental Wards, Elemental Spells, Elemental Creatures, and Elemental Crystals...All owe their existence to the Elementals Planes
True but insignificant in my opinion. The background fiction could have alternative explanations and it wouldn't change a thing.
And again, if you're going to be so picky about the finer details of the background of the original thief world, I don't think you get to brush the finer background details of EMs world under the carpet.
Quote:
The struggle between Order and Chaos is a constant in the THIEF Universe, regardless of story focus...It is a multi-dynamic mechanic that shapes The City and The World.
True of major plot archs historically. I don't believe this is desirable going forwards.
Quote:
Why would you find the diminishment of a universe fundamental, "tasteful"?
Eh? Tasteful is generally used to describe something being used in suitably smallish proportion. Hard to say until we play it, of course, but mystical sounds right to me.
SubJeff on 30/7/2013 at 14:56
Quote Posted by Brethren
but if you consider the omission of the old factions, lack of freedom of movement, and removing Stephen Russell's voice, you're detouring fairly significantly from the originals.
But the old factions aren't omitted. Does Garrett have to steal from Hammerites or Pagans. Every. Single. Time?
A voice is just a voice. If you take SR out of Thief 1 and 2 does that stop them being Thief games? Then it shouldn't be able to stop this one.
The freedom of movement issue, the whole gameplay issue, is just bad design. But every Zelda game has slightly different mechanics and yet they are all Zelda games.
Saying it's not a Thief game is silly. Saying it's a bad Thief game may, when we've had a change to play and test it against the others, be acceptable.
Renault on 30/7/2013 at 15:10
It's not any one thing that takes away from being a Thief game, it's all this stuff together. The things I listed, plus a bunch of other stuff that I didn't.
So what makes a game Thief? Is having a main character named Garrett enough? I suppose you could argue the game could be Thief without Garrett as the central character, so let's forget about that for a moment. But is having:
A light gem.
Stealthy arrows/tools.
The City (and City Watch).
Is that enough? Is just sneaking around in shadowed areas enough to classify New Thief as a "real" Thief game?
I suppose a lot of it will come down to the story they come up with, which we know virtually nothing about yet.
SubJeff on 30/7/2013 at 15:29
Yeah, it's a combination of things.
But having a character called Garrett with the skills you'd expect Garrett to have and the basic tools you'd expect him to have, in The City, able to hid in shadows, sneaking and stealing stuff and that's all you need to say it's a Thief game.
It may not be a good Thief game...
Shinrazero on 31/7/2013 at 05:18
Quote Posted by Dia
It's called 'gratuitous'. Anything thrown into a game/movie in a gratuitous manner is done so to distract from the weak aspects of said game or movie.
This is Bioshock Infinite, the new TR game, hell every other AAA game in a nutshell. Awesome presentation, interesting stories, dull gameplay. Junk food media.
Accignite Vos on 31/7/2013 at 06:30
Was told to post this here; many thanks to Vae, Goldmoon Dawn and Subjective Effect for helping me figure out where to put this. :cool:
So Thief4's changes are pretty...big, for lack of a better word. Less magic, more action, none of the factions we see so far - I could go on and on. I understand it's set in an alternate Thief universe, but I also feel like, despite all the changes, it is somehow set in the same world. Someone hinted at how the lore and factions will be explained, and that was a guy called "b1skit", or something of that nature.
But onto my theory:
The Garrett in the reboot is not an alternate version of Garrett. He is a descendant of the original Garrett; by the technology level I've seen in the trailers and gameplay demos, I think the city's probably advanced a hundred or so years, so Original!Garrett is likely his great- or great-great-grandfather. Though Original!Garrett is a very celibate sort of hero, there was the time with Basso's sister, so we can say some unlucky timing meant she got pregnant with his child; a million different reasons can be made why Garrett never found out. (That is something for the writers to solve, and especially in medieval times, it's not hard.)
New!Garrett is only like his ancestor in the fact he has near-supernatural talents in stealth. Otherwise, he is cocky, brash and more willing to kill, hardened by the streets and a time of greater social turmoil; the Hammerites, zealous as they were, kept a tight lid on order in conjunction with the City Watch. It doesn't help that the Baron was away at war in the original three, and if/when he came back, he might have been there to stamp out more blatant corruption. The one in New!Garrett's time is not nearly as competent, whether by choice or sheer inability to rule.
There is also the fact of the Keepers. The Keepers are extinct; without Glyph Magic, they fell apart like an old book. As much as Garrett despised them, they did teach him one thing - the value of self-control and non-involvement. Something I noticed in Original!Garrett was just how much of the Keeper mentality stuck with him; he didn't get romantically involved (Viktoria might have been an exception, along with the very odd fling), he refused to take a side in politics or religion, he kept himself stoic and controlled, and even though he had a problem with greed, he was good at not letting his feelings get in the way. He was very much like a Keeper, except that he didn't have their beliefs in Balance. New!Garrett has not been taught to have such strict and strong emotional control, or neutral ethics; he is very much a product of his time, flashy and callous and taking pride in things like shooting an arrow through someone's eye. (Hence why you get points for headshots.) Though, in a recording session in EM promo material, he mentions not killing if he has to - which either a) suggests that he's scared enough of the guards that he feels head-shotting them sometimes is needed, or b) much like his ancestor, he can be a hypocrite. (There's probably other possibilities I'm not thinking of, too.)
The Hammerites and Pagans are both extremely low-key compared to the time of Original!Garrett. I would not be surprised if the City has entered a time where religion is not very prominent; the Baron might have silenced the Hammer order in order to "get away with nothing". With their strict, zealous codes, there is no doubt the Hammers would have gone after him, so what does he do? He plays down their influence, meddles with their politics enough to force their rule into their cloisters and churches, and generally muzzles the Hammerite bulldog. Pagans might have been eradicated altogether, as they always struck me as one of those religious groups that would be on the way out if someone Truart-ish/Karras-ish - but with more power and organization - got sufficiently mad enough at them. The collapse of Hammerite influence also means that technology is not as strictly controlled, allowing for the leaps in Victorian invention we see in Thief4.
So. There's my theory. Please feel free to pick it apart as you please. :cheeky:
henke on 31/7/2013 at 09:05
Quote Posted by Brethren
So what makes a game Thief?
The answer to this question is so personal, and will vary so much from player to player, that coming up with any kind of "correct" answer is impossible.
The only thing we can say with certainty is that EM has the Thief IP and they're releasing a new game in the series.
I didn't think DXHR would feel like a proper Deus Ex game until I played it, and I can't put my finger on what exactly it was that brought back the old feelings. A combination of things I guess. Likewise, I don't know if Thief will be a true Thief game, but I'll know it when I play it.
ultravioletu on 31/7/2013 at 22:43
Quote Posted by Accignite Vos
The Garrett in the reboot is not an alternate version of Garrett. He is a
descendant of the original Garrett;
Interesting point, it reminds me how Inspector Barnaby was replaced by... Inspector Barnaby (his cousin) in Midsomer Murders, when John Nettles retired.
To paraphrase from the TV series: "are you all thieves in the City called Garrett, now?" :)
Accignite Vos on 31/7/2013 at 22:50
Quote Posted by ultravioletu
Interesting point, it reminds me how Inspector Barnaby was replaced by... Inspector Barnaby (his cousin) in Midsomer Murders, when John Nettles retired.
To paraphrase from the TV series: "are you all thieves in the City called Garrett, now?" :)
That, in itself, could be a plot point. It could be used to tie in the setting with the one we are all familiar with.
"What, am I not the first?"
"A man of your talents? Feh. Boy, you have no idea the amount of respect and fear that name once held. The one they called 'Garrett', if he ever saw your
modus operandi, would have robbed you blind, stole your clothes while he was at it, and then hung you by your toes out to dry so the Watch'd find you."
