Genocide Qua on 10/12/2014 at 14:07
Hi everyone.
I'm brand new to these forums so I am not sure if this is the right location to ask and if not, please let me know. So, a little over a month ago I decided to pursue creating my first game and am slowly piling information together. Stealth being my favorite genre, and Thief my favorite series, it wasn't difficult to decide which direction this game would steer towards. However, rather than just making another re-skinned Thief, I would like to try some new things with stealth but perhaps maintain some of that spiritual tension I enjoyed so much in the aforementioned title; mainly the sense of utter helplessness when it comes to open confrontation but the seemingly endless improvisational combinations of Garrett's relatively limited arsenal. My question is, as I am slowly working on this game through the upcoming months, perhaps even years, would you guys be interested in possibly giving me feedback and honest opinions on how the game is turning out and answer some of my questions in regards to mechanics, possible items and their uses and things to that nature? I really want to make this game as well as I can and would greatly appreciate critiques from such dedicated fans of stealth. As I said, I am just starting out writing down thoughts but here is a little concept sketch, and also a kind of forum greeting, I did for a possible character you might control; and creature horribly cross-bred and disfigured into an enticing female form with two opposable thumbs on each hand.
Inline Image:
http://s27.postimg.org/8wyn3o7bn/title.jpgAnyways, I really appreciate you guys reading this and hope to hear your thoughts.
Cheers.
henke on 10/12/2014 at 14:17
Yikes, looks like something from Total Recall. Nice drawing skills tho! I'll gladly give your game a play once it get's to the stage where you're ready to start showing it off.
faetal on 10/12/2014 at 16:27
Awesome pic. There's a thread called "What are you making" which would be a great place to drip feed small updates. There are a fair few people in here making stuff, so you can probably pick up some advice and feedback.
Genocide Qua on 11/12/2014 at 01:14
Thanks for the feedback guys. One of the things I’m currently thinking about is the transitional nature between missions. I would rather make it so there is a kind of a hub world between the missions that the player can indulge in and buy extra equipment, pursue optional missions, choose which missions to take first, get to know the dynamics of the world better and so on. Deadly Shadows had a similar thing going on and I enjoyed it very much but it was severely limited in trying to reserve its resources to the Xbox hardware resulting in truncated missions and said hub world. In your opinion, is the implementation of a hub area by default counter-productive to the stealth genre and you would rather have immediate mission loadouts like in Thief 1&2 or a seamless, linear progression from beginning to end of the campaign?
Pyrian on 11/12/2014 at 02:22
Hubs can be pretty cool, but they're hardly necessary. This is your first game. Try not to get swallowed by the allure of feature creep. Simply making a single, functional, reasonably fun stealth level from scratch is actually quite an undertaking in itself.
Yakoob on 11/12/2014 at 04:28
Welcome Genocide Qua! I think most folks hear would be happy to pitch in ideas, they helped me with my own work in the past a lot :)
I'm working on a new project now that also has some stealth elements so definitely interested in the discussion that comes up in this thread.
Quote Posted by Genocide Qua
Thanks for the feedback guys. One of the things I'm currently thinking about is the transitional nature between missions. I would rather make it so there is a kind of a hub world between the missions that the player can indulge in and buy extra equipment, pursue optional missions, choose which missions to take first, get to know the dynamics of the world better and so on. Deadly Shadows had a similar thing going on and I enjoyed it very much but it was severely limited in trying to reserve its resources to the Xbox hardware resulting in truncated missions and said hub world. In your opinion, is the implementation of a hub area by default counter-productive to the stealth genre and you would rather have immediate mission loadouts like in Thief 1&2 or a seamless, linear progression from beginning to end of the campaign?
There's a lot of games that do the HUB design and they take on different forms. Deus Ex, for example, uses HUBs not just for restocking, but also pacing, cutscenes and general world-building. The little bit of "safety" gives a nice breather, and it can open new ways to tell the backstory even if entirely purely via static level design aesthetics (think Adam Jensen's apartment in DX:HR). Vampire Masquerade Bloodlines also did an excellent job using Hubs to personalize the playing experience, especially with your "haven" changing over time reflecting your progress and even including a ghoul NPC (
having the Sabbath break-in to kidnap her later on felt so much more personal than if the haven was never a physical space in the game)
If you do decide to include hubs, then you must ask yourself
what is the purpose of the hub?
- To restock?
- To create a slow lull between tense missions?
- To flesh out gameworld (level design, idle NPC conversations, books, etc.)
- To move story forward (cutscenes, plot-conversations)?
- To personalize the experience (by changing the HUB based on player choices)?
If you answer no to all but the first two question, I'd say it probably isn't worth it. A lot of work for little return. So if you do decide to have hubs, make sure they are more than just a glorified item-purchasing interface.
Genocide Qua on 11/12/2014 at 05:33
Very true, Pyrian, and thank you Yakoob for the warm welcome and the great insight. When you're starting out I suppose it's tempting to reach out to every aspect of the game and work on everything at once. Although it is not in my immediate to-do list, the plan was always to include a form of compelling storytelling and implement it in an organic manner. Like you guys mentioned, it is a big investment but it can pay off if experienced in a way that felt necessary and appropriately expanded the world. As with your aforementioned titles, Yakoob, the narrative is such an integral part of the experience that you don't mind taking a break from the main missions to walk around and take in all the intricate placement of npcs, objects, notes, audiologs, specific arrangements of stationary objects, and whatever else that may be, because you are genuinely interested in finding out more about this world. With all that in mind, one thing many of these games have in common, besides great writing, is that many of these things are optional experiences and are in no way forced upon you. They are simply arranged in the game world with no more or less emphasis as other things and the only thing prohibiting you from experiencing these details is your own interest and motivation. If you want to just deal with the main objectives, you can do that, but there is something compelling about knowing that these additions will always be there if ever you feel like taking a look.
On a similar topic, this was one of the problems I had with the new Thief. Although the much bigger levels were appreciated, the world felt like a husk. There seemed to be no interest from the designers in treating every level and every room like a place people would actually live in, but rather a fairly generic arrangement of assets that better assist, or attempt to impede, Garrett progression. Which is surprising given the studio's previous work on DE:HR.
For now, my main focus is on creating a single level to function as a test demo for fleshing out the controls and tactics, create compelling AI and breakdown efficient and complex ways to incorporate the environment to strategies. Just like pinball, if a board, in this case the demo, is not fun for the player to run and sneak around in and experience, it will still be boring and repetitive once the paintjob is applied.
Genocide Qua on 12/12/2014 at 03:17
In many ways, the method by which a game (especially a stealth game) chooses to implement the save system can pretty much make or break the experience. Splinter Cell: Pandora Tomorrow is a great example of how a checkpoint based save system can be such a hindrance to an overall great game. Having the ability to save whenever you please is by far the most efficient way of handling a stealth game whose primary form of progression is careful and methodical, although exhilarating, clearing of obstacles. I wanted to bring up one particular method of saving and hopefully hear some of your own thoughts on it; the reliance of physical in-game save stations. Do you feel this to be an immersion breaking prop that constantly takes you out of the game, or a plausible lore-friendly addition to the world? Personally, I have never really had a problem with such things, as far as breaking the 4th wall. However, I recently came across a video by Gopher on Youtube in which he criticizes the save system of stealth-based game Alien:Isolation. His view is that it constantly keeps him from taking in the world as the objective of finding the next save station is so awkward, and judging by the like bar and comments, many people seem to agree. So, how game-breaking is such a concept for you guys, and to the ones that played A:I, was is a constant reminder that you were playing a game?
For those interested in the video itself:
(
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjegUcnqz1k&list=UU1CSCMwaDubQ4rcYCpX40Eg)
faetal on 12/12/2014 at 08:49
I'm in two minds about save states. While checkpoint based saves can be infuriating in stealth games if a section is very difficult, save-scumming can really kill the tension if you're simply nudging your save state forward each time you make a bit of progress. I guess it really depends on how well the stealth is done. If success is closely tied to player skill (rather than dodgy AI / controls etc..), then repeating the same section a few times to get it right can give a really nice pay off for refining the approach.
Pyrian on 12/12/2014 at 21:35
If people really don't like save-scumming they can just not do it. I don't like repeatedly re-doing lengthy sections just to try something again.
I don't really get the point of explicit save stations (as opposed to invisible checkpoints) - it does gamify the experience, and what are you getting out of it?
