Subjective Effect on 17/6/2024 at 19:18
Oh, I see what you mean.
My mistake, I wasn't clear. I don't mean protests IN the Gaza Strip! That's suicide, obviously. I mean the protests in the West on the streets of large cities and on university campuses. Hamas thinks it has the support of the woke West because no one says a damn thing about them and just protests Israel. That's what I mean.
Starker on 17/6/2024 at 20:42
From what I can tell, no western government is currently supporting Hamas. But Israel is being supported in its actions.
I mean, certainly Hamas leaders and operators should be brought to justice for their war crimes. I don't think any decent person would have any objections to that. But it's not like a protest would even register on Hamas's radar.
SD on 18/6/2024 at 01:13
The discussion about whether Hamas is a real government or not seems moot anyway, because they're a proxy for Iran, who most definitely are. As distasteful as some may find Israel, I believe they are considerably less of a threat to us and our way of life than the Ayatollahs.
Subjective Effect on 18/6/2024 at 05:41
Quote Posted by Starker
But it's not like a protest would even register on Hamas's radar.
I think it would if they were as widespread as those against Israel. I get why people are protesting against Israeli actions since I'm in disagreement with them too, just for different reasons I think. I don't get why the same people who protest against Israel don't say anything about Hamas. It doesn't matter if your government is supporting someone - you can still display your disagreement with them. Protesting against Israel is just a gesture - is it actually going to change any government policy? I doubt it.
SD - the weird thing to me about Iran is I have never encountered such a government/people split. I've met a lot of Iranians and they are almost always super chilled and never in support of the Iranian regime nor especially sympathetic to Palestinian "resistance". It's a real contrast to people from a lot of other ME countries or even Pakistan, Indonesia or Malaysia, who (in my experience). I guess they know what it's like to live under nutjobs.
Starker on 18/6/2024 at 06:07
Just as Hamas doesn't care about popularity inside Gaza, as they can enforce their rule at the point of a gun, they sure as hell don't care about appeasing Western populaces either. If there were protests against Hamas, it would only send a signal that their tactics are working and that they are able to make people upset in the West. And conflict is something that they want.
Also, Hamas committed an atrocity, but Israel is committing one right now and has for months. People are protesting Israel, because it's bombing civilians, destroying infrastructure in Gaza and blocking aid, worsening the human catastrophe every day. It's one of the things that is current and pressing because the dead and wounded keep piling up and there is lack of every imaginable necessity, leading to disease and starvation.
Also, I think that the protests and political activism may well have had an effect on US policy. Construction of the pier being high priority, US dropping food via air, pressure on Israel to moderate their response -- this all may have well happened on a smaller scale or not at all if people weren't making noise about it, for example in the Democratic primaries.
DuatDweller on 18/6/2024 at 08:03
Well of course, when people went against Netanyahu's plans he retaliated and started a war to stay a float, I wonder how long will be before he's thrown out of the government.
Subjective Effect on 18/6/2024 at 12:02
Quote Posted by Starker
Just as Hamas doesn't care about popularity inside Gaza, as they can enforce their rule at the point of a gun, they sure as hell don't care about appeasing Western populaces either.
Perhaps not, but do you not think they feel emboldened by the anti-Israel/anti-Zionist sentiment that's apparent world wide?
It's more than that though. You say Hamas committed an atrocity but it certainly seems to be ignored/forgotten by those campus protestors. Why are they calling for only Israel to stop, and not also for Hamas to release the hostages/surrender. You say Hamas doesn't care, but it's supporters in Iran and Qatar might.
Starker on 18/6/2024 at 12:44
Do you think universities have much sway over what Hamas does? Protesting a university to get them to divest from the military-industrial complex is one thing, protesting a university to get them to influence Hamas's decision making is something completely different.
But yes, this has been one of the demands I've seen in other protests.
SD on 18/6/2024 at 14:21
Quote Posted by Subjective Effect
SD - the weird thing to me about Iran is I have never encountered such a government/people split. I've met a lot of Iranians and they are almost always super chilled and never in support of the Iranian regime nor especially sympathetic to Palestinian "resistance". It's a real contrast to people from a lot of other ME countries or even Pakistan, Indonesia or Malaysia, who (in my experience). I guess they know what it's like to live under nutjobs.
I believe the Ayatollah theocracy draws most of its support from the poor and uneducated (basically the same types who landed us with Brexit, Trump etc) and most Iranians you're likely to encounter will be the educated Westernised middle class, and some will even be refugees or dissidents. I remember reading the results of one of those periodic attitude surveys, and the level of antisemitism in Iran was actually quite a bit lower than in a lot of other countries in the Middle East.
The Persians are of course an ancient people with a history as rich and storied as that of the Judeans, with whom they have crossed paths many times over the millennia; they know that the Jews are who they say they are, so they're less likely to be taken in by Palestinian conspiracy theories. I think there is also some lingering resentment of the native Persian culture being sidelined by Islam, which is of course foreign to both Persia and Judea. Though some Zoroastrians bravely soldier on in Iran, and the country as a whole generally resisted Arabisation, even while it succumbed to Islamisation.
As it happens, my brother-in-law is an Iranian nuclear engineer, which is not the setup for a joke, but an amusing fact.
