Stardog on 5/3/2005 at 00:45
First pic looks like 5 or so brushes grouped together.
The 2nd pic is simply a rectangular brush, but with the bottom-right corner dragged downwards with the Vertex Edit tool (top-left 2nd column of toolbar).
- Hold ctrl+alt, then click-drag a box around the vertex you want to move, then hold ctrl and drag it with LMButton.
You could also use the 2D shape editor. The button for that is at the top somewhere.
Krypt on 5/3/2005 at 02:01
Either with vertex editing or the brush clipping tool. Both are very powerful and easy to use once you get the hang of them. Stardog already explained the basics of vertex editing. To use brush clipping, click the 4th button down from the top-left on the side toolbar. Then select a brush and CTRL+rightclick somewhere on the map. This will drop a clip marker, which can be repositioned like any other actor. CTRL+rightclick again somewhere else to drop another marker and you will have created your clipping plane. (it is possible to drop 3 markers to do 3d clipping, but don't worry about that yet) It draws a line between the two points, with another line sticking out perpendicularly from the center of it. This line shows the clip normal, i.e. which direction it will clip. Move the markers around until your clip plane goes across the brush and then hit the Clip Selected button, which looks like a square with a red line going across the corner, which is translucent. This will slice off everything on the other side of the clip plane. There are also other clip buttons in the same section as the Clip Selected button, try those out too.
Twist on 5/3/2005 at 04:55
The process Krypt describes is vital.
Using brush clipping/splicing in combination with vertex editing essentially allows you to "box model" like you would with 3ds Max or Maya.
The first blue brush could be created from a single cube brush using this method. If I can find the time this weekend or early next week, I'll try to construct a decent tutorial explaining the process.
It is an important and versatile technique because the basic concept works across all bsp editors (so you can use the same technique to create curves, arches or other custom shapes in Hammer, GtkRadiant or DOOMEdit -- all starting from a basic cube).
bukary on 5/3/2005 at 13:18
Thank you all for the explanations! :thumb:
Quote Posted by Twist
If I can find the time this weekend or early next week, I'll try to construct a decent tutorial explaining the process.
Such tutorial would be great!
I am trying to learn as much as possible from the original maps. One thing seems strange for me (DromEd user). I've noticed that instead of using one huge substracted brush for (even small) city area (say, the street near the entrance to the Cradle) designer(s) used many small brushes (that form one big brush together). Is there a reason for this? Performance? Zoning? Or was it just easier to build the map that way? :confused:
And other thing: there are some sloped areas in - for example - South Quarter (the street next to the well) and Old Quarter (entrance to the Cradle). In DromEd I would build such areas with the use of air (substracted) brushes (as shown in the picture A). But in T3Ed such areas were built from substracted and added brush (as shown in the picture B) that sometimes ressamble sloped bridge above the 'floor'. Does it make any difference in T3Ed? Because in DromEd it was always advised to use substracted brushes... Some good example of B ('sloped bridge') would be this blue brush (group of brushes) I posted earlier in this thread.
Inline Image:
http://img188.exs.cx/img188/838/diagram1ml.jpgKrypt on 5/3/2005 at 19:36
Quote Posted by bukary
I am trying to learn as much as possible from the original maps. One thing seems strange for me (DromEd user). I've noticed that instead of using one huge substracted brush for (even small) city area (say, the street near the entrance to the Cradle) designer(s) used many small brushes (that form one big brush together). Is there a reason for this? Performance? Zoning? Or was it just easier to build the map that way? :confused:
I always found it easier to build with subtractions. It was the most efficient way to build windy corridor-type maps to work in our engine. It's also a lot cleaner than making one big subtraction because you'd have to add in tons of extra brushes to make up the walls and anything else, instead of just a few subtractions. It allows for more malleability in your layout as well. If you have one big subtraction you are kind of encouraged to make the whole floor of your map flat, but by making every area out of subtractions we could create hills and such easier. It also makes it a lot easier to texture the BSP later, if you want different textures on the floors of different areas. However, if you can make the same BSP with the method you described then it doesn't really make a difference in the end performance-wise.
Quote Posted by bukary
And other thing: there are some sloped areas in - for example - South Quarter (the street next to the well) and Old Quarter (entrance to the Cradle). In DromEd I would build such areas with the use of air (substracted) brushes (as shown in the picture A). But in T3Ed such areas were built from substracted and added brush (as shown in the picture B) that sometimes ressamble sloped bridge above the 'floor'. Does it make any difference in T3Ed? Because in DromEd it was always advised to use substracted brushes... Some good example of B ('sloped bridge') would be this blue brush (group of brushes) I posted earlier in this thread.
I think this particular case in SQ was one where the designer had laid out the street subtraction beforehand and placed the buildings on either side of it and just wanted to make an irregular hill going up it and added it in at the end. You can do it either way, everyone has their own building style.
Twist on 5/3/2005 at 20:14
Quote Posted by bukary
In DromEd I would build such areas with the use of air (substracted) brushes (as shown in the picture A). But in T3Ed such areas were built from substracted and added brush (as shown in the picture B) that sometimes ressamble sloped bridge above the 'floor'. Does it make any difference in T3Ed? Because in DromEd it was always advised to use substracted brushes... Some good example of B ('sloped bridge') would be this blue brush (group of brushes) I posted earlier in this thread.
Technically, if you use fewer brush operations and create a simpler layout of brushes for a given design, you will less likely incur quirks elsewhere in your map resulting from bsp calculation errors.
However:
Quote Posted by Krypt
It allows for more malleability in your layout as well
So you should still strive for clean, simple bsp geometry when you can, but don't box yourself into a corner. ;)
In your diagram B, I would guess that Krypt is right about why the designer chose to create the ramp, but just for understanding and discussion, consider another reason why that designer might've chosen this construction.
If the ramp was made from the larger, subtracted brush, what would happen to the arrangement of all the other geometry in the area if he decided to change the ramp? He might have to shift and adjust everything to suit the edit of that single, large subtracted brush.
By keeping the ramp a separate entity from the geometry around it, he can tweak and adjust it more freely. :)
bukary on 6/3/2005 at 10:18
Once again, thanks for the explanation, Krypt and Twist. I find them very, very useful. It is also a great privilege to hear some advices from TDS designer.
One more question:
Inline Image:
http://img55.exs.cx/img55/7942/diagram2xjpg3rm.jpgInline Image:
http://img55.exs.cx/img55/8952/diagram2yjpg0tr.jpgIn diagram A there is one huge subtracted brush and building (added brush) in the middle. In diagram B there are four subtracted brushes that carve the building out.
Would there be any difference in performance (or any other important issue) between A and B?
Karkianman on 6/3/2005 at 17:49
Thats what I'd like to know, since i use method B.
Krypt on 6/3/2005 at 18:14
No, there shouldn't be much difference between those two in the end as long as you portal both of them the same way. Whatever method you prefer should be fine. The Flesh BSP is generated from the end product of the Unreal BSP, so it would be essentially the same in-game for both of those methods.
