The Shroud on 17/10/2013 at 22:14
Starker is right. Gaining lockpicks and completely new types of arrows in previous Thief games were not upgrades as such. They didn't upgrade anything the player could already do, they were entirely new kinds of devices that also made perfect sense within the narrative framework of the game. Permanently enhancing Garrett's aiming speed, damage, damage reduction, etc. -- that is a different kind of approach altogether. Nothing inherently new or interesting is being added to the gameplay through that approach, it's not changing the mechanics of how the game is played or offering new options or alternatives, it's increasing the player's potency at the same options they've had at their disposal all along. It literally is a progressive reduction in difficulty for specific elements of the game, which are selected by the player. It's giving the player a means of making certain gameplay elements easier for them to overcome as they progress through the game. I happen to think the game should get harder as it progresses, not easier.
Chade on 17/10/2013 at 22:33
There are lots of useful distinctions that can be made.
Allowing the player to choose between upgrades vs. not.
How the player's upgrades are presented within the game's fiction.
Whether you grant new abilities or improve the effectiveness of existing abilities.
Walling some of these off and calling them upgrades while insisting that other things are not upgrades is ... not a very interesting activity IMO. It's more interesting to talk about what sort of upgrades (or whatever you want to call it!) you are getting and how that ties into the rest of the game.
The Shroud on 17/10/2013 at 22:59
Well alright, let's talk about that, then. Here are some examples of upgrades we've seen in Thief 4:
Aim Speed 1
Damage Increase 1
Damage Reduction 1
Improved Melee 1
Lockpick Sweet Spot 1
Are these interesting? We have faster aiming, more damage output, less vulnerability to damage suffered, more effectiveness in combat, and easier lockpicking. So that's basically 2 methods of speeding up the action and 3 methods of making the player more powerful in combat. How are these presented within the game's fiction and how do they tie in to the rest of the game? Why is Garrett now suddenly getting more powerful at these kinds of things?
Obviously we can't answer those questions without having played through the game, so that in itself walls off that type of a discussion (unless people are just going to resort to conjecture). All I can say is that I have not yet seen a narrative explanation for these within the game's fiction and how they tie in to the rest of the game from a plot standpoint. What I can comment on is whether I find them interesting from a conceptual standpoint. And honestly, I don't. Faster aiming, more damage, etc, etc, there's no real substance in any of that for me. Nothing really meaningful, creative, or exciting. Just stats and point-values.
Now, wire cutters and a ratchet that allow you to do things you couldn't do before...that I find more intriguing and more meaningful to the gameplay.
Vae on 17/10/2013 at 23:03
What's important to understand, is that in the classic games, weapons and items were non-upgradable and solely dependent on creative application from the player, in order to increase their utility...Whereas with NuThief, upgradable weapons and items will serve to reduce the reliance on player skill.
SubJeff on 17/10/2013 at 23:16
You're probably right but you know me, forever the optimist.
Perhaps the enemies will be so varied and the environments so amazing we'll all need to upgrade in order to progress, but the way we each upgrade will mean new interesting, complex and challenging gameplay emerges and we end up bowing to the genius of NuThief.
:p
The Shroud on 17/10/2013 at 23:29
Lol. The thing is, we already know that the game can be played without upgrading anything at all (which is a positive thing, don't get me wrong -- I don't want us to be forced to buy upgrades in order to progress), so it's not as if we actually need them in the first place. They're just there because it's the game's way of adding additional positive reinforcement for players...which I suppose means they're not confident that players have enough positive reinforcement to keep playing unless they get these kinds of "rewards". But honestly, if that's the case, that's symptomatic of a much greater problem with the overall game design. And if players don't have enough incentive from the core stealth-and-avoidance gameplay to keep progressing through the game, are faster aiming and higher damage really going to solve that? I seriously doubt it.
Starker on 17/10/2013 at 23:33
For me the important distinction is whether it's substituting player skill with character skill. One of the distinguishing features of Thief versus games like Deus Ex was that it was about player skill growth rather than about character skill growth.
Here are Warren Spector and Doug Church talking about it way back when (minutes 35-39): (
http://gdcvault.com/play/1018278/Practical-Game-Analysis-with-Doug)
The Shroud on 18/10/2013 at 00:00
Exactly. Now, don't get me wrong -- I'm all for advancing a character with increases to skills in games where that's part of the built-in theme. The Elder Scrolls games, for instance, are some of my favorites. Because in those games, you're not playing a character someone else created, you're playing your character and advancing them along whatever path you choose for them. Your character's progression in terms of skills and abilities is central to the theme of those games, it's a large part of the reason you're playing those games in the first place.
Thief is a very different kind of game from that. Garrett is Garrett, we already know who he is, what he can do, what our objectives are. Our ability to advance Garrett as a growing, evolving character with as-yet undefined limits and unexplored potential is not part of the game's theme -- it's we who are advancing, as players. That's where Thief's focus has always been, that's the essence of what the gameplay is all about. Us. Our abilities. Our potential. The focus isn't really on Garrett, that's the irony of it all. Though he is the character we're playing and the game obviously follows his adventures and the plot revolves around him, the actual gameplay itself is focused on our skills and problem-solving abilities. Increasing Garrett's abilities takes away from the focus on and reliance upon the player's abilities. The two are actually in direct conflict with each other.
Chade on 18/10/2013 at 00:03
Quote Posted by The Shroud
We have faster aiming, more damage output, less vulnerability to damage suffered, more effectiveness in combat, and easier lockpicking. So that's basically 2 methods of speeding up the action and 3 methods of making the player more powerful in combat. How are these presented within the game's fiction and how do they tie in to the rest of the game? Why is Garrett now suddenly getting more powerful at these kinds of things?
Obviously we can't answer those questions without having played through the game, so that in itself walls off that type of a discussion (unless people are just going to resort to conjecture). All I can say is that I have not yet seen a
narrative explanation for these within the game's fiction and how they tie in to the rest of the game from a plot standpoint. What I can comment on is whether I find them interesting from a
conceptual standpoint. And honestly, I don't. Faster aiming, more damage, etc, etc, there's no real substance in any of that for me. Nothing really meaningful, creative, or exciting. Just stats and point-values.
Now, wire cutters and a ratchet that allow you to do things you couldn't do before...that I find more intriguing and more meaningful to the gameplay.
I have a few thoughts on this.
So first, the stealth related upgrades we know about are lockpicking, wire cutters, and ratchets.
There is no "hide in shadows 1" or "reduced sound 1" upgrades. Maybe they do exist in the game, but for now I'll assume not (mostly because it's hard for me to imagine doing level design when you don't know how well hidden the player will be). Presumably there will also be improved access to consumables as the player progresses, as in earlier games. With the exception of lock-picking, there are no incremental upgrades when it comes to stealth.
The player can legitimately choose not to purchase tools like the wire cutters and ratchet, so presumably there will always be fairly clear stealthy approaches that do not rely on these tools. This is a bit of a contrast to missions like the sword and assassins in thief 1, for instance, where the "obvious" stealth entry relied on the player having rope arrows and lockpicks respectively. As such, I don't really expect these skills to have an enormous impact on the stealth gameplay, I expect them to be more like "nice to have" abilities. I would be quite unhappy if players who do not buy these upgrades find it much harder to be stealthy.
The combat upgrades are all incremental. It would be nicer to not have them at all, but as long as there are combat upgrades, I think this makes sense. You don't want a complicated combat simulation in a thief game IMO, so you don't want lots of different options and devices. My biggest concern is that provide additional legitimacy to players wanting to be a "combat person". If we absolutely had to have violent skills, I would have rather have seen assassination upgrades (silent takedowns with the bow, for instance). At least it would have kept the game firmly focused on stealth.
As far as difficulty is concerned, I don't think it will make that much difference. I'm assuming the stealth related upgrades are not critical, and I'm assuming the combat upgrades will be balanced by having tougher guards, as is generally the case.
From a narrative point of view, the new abilities have proper fictional justifications in the world, but the incremental abilities have nothing. I'm quite happy with that. Pseudo-realistic names for incremental upgrades often come across badly.
Vae on 18/10/2013 at 00:12
Quote Posted by The Shroud
Garrett is Garrett, we already know who he is, what he can do, what our objectives are. Our ability to advance Garrett as a growing, evolving character with as-yet undefined limits and unexplored potential is not part of the game's theme -- it's
we who are advancing, as players. That's where Thief's focus has always been, that's the essence of what the gameplay is all about.
Us.
Our abilities.
Our potential. The focus isn't really on Garrett, that's the irony of it all. Though he is the character we're playing and the game obviously follows his adventures and the plot revolves around him, the actual gameplay itself is focused on
our skills and problem-solving abilities. Increasing Garrett's abilities takes away from the focus on and reliance upon the player's abilities. The two are actually in direct conflict with each other.
Precisely my point...Intelligent, creative application, without the option to rely on simulated advancements,
leverages the player to find a solution in order to level up in personal skill.
...and in this way, among other incongruities, NuThief is incompatible with the core design philosophy...therefore disqualifying itself as a true THIEF game.
