Chade on 17/10/2013 at 11:12
Quote Posted by The Shroud
I wasn't saying that I've somehow gathered factual, objective proof about what does and doesn't need improving in Thief ... Again, this extrapolation you've made about my viewpoint on this was drawn from a misinterpreted statement of mine. I don't hold that viewpoint at all.
Oh, I see. My apologies!
Quote Posted by The Shroud
I don't think a game has to be particularly poorly done in order for it to need changes. TDP was my favorite game of all time, with TMA being a very close second. I absolutely adore those games. That doesn't mean I don't see room for improvement in them.
Indeed, and I wasn't saying that there is nothing to improve about them at all, I just thought you were saying there were a
specific set of changes that were needed, which wasn't what you were saying at all.
SubJeff on 17/10/2013 at 11:54
Remind me what upgrades Garrett got in the previous games.
jay pettitt on 17/10/2013 at 12:33
Lock picks. Rope Arrows. Gas Arrows. Fire Arrows. Constantine's sword etc etc etc.
You've played Thief before right? If not you should, it's really very good.
legoman on 17/10/2013 at 12:38
Upgrades were similar to acquisition of better weapons in FPS games of the time, albeit far more subtle. Certain arrow types and equipment were only available in later levels, for example in TDP, gas arrows only became available about half way through the game I believe. The great thing was that most upgrades were unnecessary if one played the game well, the only equipment which was not available in level 1 which was also needed in later levels was the rope arrow, lock picks and climbing gloves, all enabling new movement paths.
I suspect upgrades shall be far more of an RPG flavour in nuthief, with later enemies requiring 'blackjack level 3' to be knocked out for example.
SubJeff on 17/10/2013 at 14:56
Quote Posted by jay pettitt
Lock picks. Rope Arrows. Gas Arrows. Fire Arrows. Constantine’s sword etc etc etc.
You've played Thief before right? If not you should, it's really very good.
Those aren't upgrades to Garrett. Try again.
jay pettitt on 17/10/2013 at 15:06
Quote:
Those aren't upgrades to Garrett. Try again.
Oh, sorry - I thought you were having the same conversation as everyone else. You mean an upgrade to Garret's actual biology (who knew?). Like a bionic eye for example. Or the ability to see hidden keeper glyphs perhaps. Or a temporary upgrade from a speed potion. See, its still not that hard. Perhaps you could have thought of some yourself.
But maybe that's just the way you roll.
SubJeff on 17/10/2013 at 19:23
Using XP to upgrade Garrett's skills is upgrading Garrett.
Using money to upgrade his equipment is completely different.
But you wouldn't understand that. jay might though.
The Shroud on 17/10/2013 at 20:06
NuEffect's point still has some validity though -- Garrett's innate skills themselves were not upgraded in previous Thief games, and even speed potions were very temporary boosts, a rare, consumable asset the player could acquire in a few select missions. Healing potions and breath potions were also a limited, consumable form of "damage reduction". While I'm of the opinion that potions were unnecessary in previous Thief games, there are some important differences between that method of buffing the player and awarding permanent upgrades to Garrett's physical abilities that continue to increase as the game progresses.
Again, acquiring better lockpicks, tools to disable traps, flash bombs, armor-piercing arrows, etc. -- I'm all for that. But increasing Garrett's aiming speed, damage reduction, and other such traits? I think that's missing the point of the game. Garrett should acquire the best thieving tools he can afford, absolutely, but he himself and his capabilities should be defined by the player's increasing skill in mastering the gameplay.
What is truly more empowering for a player, psychologically? Decreasing the challenge of the game via the game overtly enhancing a player's capabilities and redefining their level of power (essentially saying, "You are now more powerful because we award more power to you"), or maintaining the same challenge and thereby requiring the player to learn how to overcome it through their own growing skill and ingenuity?
See, that's the point that the design philosophy behind skill-upgrades misses. If the game is the source of the player's progression and the arbiter of their advancement, it is the game that truly holds the power -- the power to increase or not increase the player's capabilities. The availability of skill upgrades, how much they cost, how much gold the player is capable of acquiring in each mission, how powerful they can become -- these factors are all under the game's control, which is essentially the developers' control over the player. Unconsciously, the player knows that. They know that their power comes from what's given to them, and that can limit the magnitude of one's sense of achievement when they succeed.
But when a player's success is due wholly, utterly, purely to their skill, their wits and resourcefulness, with no credit due to the game's overt help or reduced challenges, their sense of personal achievement is at its peak. They did it, by themselves. What can be more empowering for a person than that?
Chade on 17/10/2013 at 21:28
The upgrades which the player receives in thief do not come at the expense of his personal skill progression. Quite the opposite, in fact. As the player receives more abilities, the gameplay gets more complex, the player has to choose from more options, and the situations he gets placed in require him to use more options.
This is true of a lot of upgrades in mixed RPG/whatever games.
Upgrades like "increased damage +1", on the other hand, well ... that's different.
Starker on 17/10/2013 at 21:54
I don't think you can call introducing new game mechanics upgrades. Getting a fire arrow is not an upgrade. Getting a fire arrow that makes more damage than the previous fire arrow would be an upgrade. In this sense, apart from Constantine's sword and vine arrows, I can't really think of any upgrades in the original games made by LGS.
