Xorak on 15/10/2013 at 06:45
Quote Posted by NuEffect
Wait. Are people saying Garrett isn't capable of learning, of improving?
To me, in a well-designed game, Garrett's improvement should be linked to the player's own improvement at finding out new ways to go about solving each level. i.e. unexpectedly finding out 6 levels into the game that doing a certain thing can achieve unexpected results against certain enemies in certain situations. That's what actually helps create real replayability, to play again and use these discovered techniques to reach unexpected places.
Forcing the player instead to mindlessly upgrade their bow between missions or to force them to replay by locking locations the first time through is the best that can be expected in lieu of enlightened game design.
SubJeff on 15/10/2013 at 07:26
Why is upgrading your bow "mindless"? When you get a new console is that mindless? When you get running shoes because you're going to start running is that mindless?
How do you simulate increased strength, speed, etc through training? You can't press any harder on the keyboard to make him run faster.
There are things wrong with the xp system but half of what people are complaining about is total bs.
Nuth on 15/10/2013 at 09:11
The presence of upgrades wouldn't bother me much. They aren't automatic. They aren't required to complete the game, as far as I know. I didn't use invisibility potions because I didn't like the idea of them, and that's the way I would treat ability upgrades.
TriangleTooth on 15/10/2013 at 10:02
Upgrades to things like bows and such are fine, Garrett is buying better equipment so of course it'll give him an edge. Buying skills would seem silly though.
Renault on 15/10/2013 at 10:47
Agreed, I don't have a problem with new or even upgraded equipment. But when you start phrasing things like:
Aim Speed 1
Damage Increase 1
Damage Reduction 1
Improved Melee 1
Lockpick Sweet Spot 1
it sounds like ability or skills upgrades to me, which is lame. If they really were equipment upgrades, they'd be called "Enhanced Bow Sight" or "Steel Arrow tips" or "Leather Studded Armor" or something similar. These things are obviously skill increases (I can only guess how they are "granted" or trained to Garrett) and the numbers after each one indicates there will be progression through several levels of those skills. Hello, RPG lite.
jay pettitt on 15/10/2013 at 10:49
Quote Posted by LoucMachine
If my memory is right...
It isn't.
Quote:
Why is upgrading your bow "mindless"?
...because of what Goldmoon Dawn just said (except the bit about XP). Judging a tricky shot in T1 and T2 was a matter of 'personal entertainment'. Which is kind of a significant thing in a video game. (though I take issue that making a tricky shot was 'just' a matter of personal entertainment as GD argues, because it also afforded progress ~ another significant thing in a video game.)
And because psychology 101 tells us that mastering a skill (T1 and T2 required the player to do a something: judge distance and offset their aim with the bow and arrow) is much more satisfying than other sorts of compensation. Assuming we want our game-play satisfying of course. (Jay really thinks game makers should widen their psychology reading list beyond their weird obsession with the uncanny valley ~ they're missing a trick).
Strictly speaking I didn't actually argue that upgrading equipment was mindless. But reducing the need for skill from the player to do things, such as judge distance when aiming with the bow, is. Shopping hardly compensates.
But yeah ~ if you're going to have an XP system then it looked as though EM were doing a fair job of it ~ similar to Deus Ex: human Revolution which did quite well at handing out the highest rewards for non-violent play and stealthy approaches. The way you weight XP rewards has the potential to be interesting.
Esme on 15/10/2013 at 11:11
Quote Posted by jay pettitt
Rambo-ing through the levels lets you steal all the loot, right.
Maybe a nice feature would be if the prices available to you depended on how you played.
I may be wrong on this but I have a vague memory, waaay back at the beginning of the four year silence, that this was one of the suggestions over on EM's forums, along with an increase in alertness/offensive capability/number of guard AI if there was a murderer roaming the city as opposed to a thief.
jay pettitt on 15/10/2013 at 11:16
Aside from Renz's take where some equipment would become more expensive if you were excessively violent (perhaps because suppliers were less keen to associate with you) you could also reduce the amount Garrett could get for his ill-gotten trinkets - perhaps because fences were less keen to deal with the spoils from a messy, bloody job.
I've not thought it through though. Sometimes giving the player penalties can backfire.
For example: a potential problem with ramping up the security level in the City as a response to violent play styles to try and encourage more strategic/stealthy/non-violent play would be that you also make it much harder for the player to then be stealthy and non-violent.
SubJeff on 15/10/2013 at 11:59
Quote Posted by jay pettitt
...because of what Goldmoon Dawn just said (except the bit about XP). Judging a tricky shot in T1 and T2 was a matter of 'personal entertainment'. Which is kind of a significant thing in a video game. (though I take issue that making a tricky shot was 'just' a matter of personal entertainment as GD argues, because it also afforded progress ~ another significant thing in a video game.)
And because psychology 101 tells us that mastering a skill (T1 and T2 required the player to do a something: judge distance and offset their aim with the bow and arrow) is much more satisfying than other sorts of compensation. Assuming we want our game-play satisfying of course. (Jay really thinks game makers should widen their psychology reading list beyond their weird obsession with the uncanny valley ~ they're missing a trick)
This is all about the player skill/simulated skill divide and therefore it depends upon what the bow upgrades are.
jay pettitt on 15/10/2013 at 12:30
Quote:
This is all about the player skill/simulated skill divide and therefore it depends upon what the bow upgrades are.
Sure. But I think that simulated skill is generally a poor cousin to player skill in the context of a Thief game. (as did LGS employees who have spoken specifically about their aims for Thief in interviews and as does text book psychology.)
I don't have a huge problem with buying equipment upgrades ~ (though I suspect it doesn't add a great deal, and I'll rant one day about how stupid the T4
wrench wire cutters are.) I do have a problem with dumbing down the requirement for player skill in favour of simulated skill. I'd much rather see a better player skill system than a better simulated skill system. And that's not what I'm seeing from T4 (cutting the XP feature isn't the same as making player skill bit better).
