jay pettitt on 7/12/2013 at 14:51
tbh, I don't know that T4 doesn't interpret ledges as places where you can lean. Or that it's dependant on mark up in the level design or if it's a system like mantling.
But either way, I'm sure that there'll be places where x isn't as good as y or whatever. The question then is whether this is a sign of some rot that's got in and pervades the whole game. Or if somewhere else y will be better than x - thus compensating the player. So if T4's leaning is a let down in some circumstances, but better than T1 & T2 in others, then what's the net effect?
Quote Posted by NuEffect
I've discussed this many times before and I don't need a points system. Contextual movements that enforce an action where previously they did not... This is therefore potentially limiting...
You've invoked the seductive power of the words like 'enforce' and 'choice' and 'freedom'. But(
http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=142536&p=2218625&viewfull=1#post2218625) that's not an argument. That's rhetoric. If you want to argue something is being 'limited', you need to quantify stuff.
Quote:
...or shifts the player/simulated skill divide towards simulated.
No it doesn't. And again, you do need to quantify if you want to argue that there's a change. At least Vae understood that objectivity was needed.
Mofleaker on 7/12/2013 at 15:43
Another point. With all this contextual stuff, what are the chances we're going to be interacting with physics objects to traverse the environment? I'd say it's pretty slim. No more stacking boxes to take routes even the developers didn't think of. The number of variables you lose when you adopt contextual features is unacceptable. All for the sake of hand animations.
SubJeff on 7/12/2013 at 16:59
How exactly do you want me to quantify it jay?
I can't make it any simpler than this: if you cannot perform an action in a sequel where you previously could, in the prequel, because of the new gameplay mechanics, with everything else being equal, your choice has been limited.
If standing next to a wall alters a button press action to mantle from swoop I cannot swoop there - I am forced to either mantle or do something else, the swoop option is taken from me.
yxlplig on 8/12/2013 at 01:13
Quote Posted by jay pettitt
Thanks to contextual controls though,
you now have new options. Ergo, your available options are not being limited in number. Just changed. Contextually.
What would be an example of a new tactical option afforded to us by contextual jumping or leaning? Even hypothetically, if you can't cite anything specifically from the game.
SubJeff on 8/12/2013 at 07:31
Quote Posted by jay pettitt
There is a wall in the way. Thanks to contextual controls though, you now have new options. Ergo, your available options are not being limited in number. Just changed. Contextually.
No, contextual movements have reduced them.
How can you not see this?
jtbalogh on 8/12/2013 at 08:10
Quote Posted by jay pettitt
There is a wall in the way. Thanks to contextual controls though, you now have new options. Ergo, your available options are not being limited in number. Just changed. Contextually. Though granted, you might not be able to swoop into a wall all day. But I'm not sure that should be a priority for developers.
Not true. Modifiers with two or three key combinations have already been around for years to give players new tactics on top of free movement. Contextual button technology is just an alternative, though with new tactics and no free movement. Additionally, there are other side effects.
1. A contextual button influences a more lazy and dumbed-down player behavior movement
2. A contextual button helps EM devs finally restrict player animation to stop all the enormous amounts of youtube videos with crazy bunny-hopping, spinning in circles, dancing in the rain, wall humping, etc.
If contextual button technology was ever needed at all, it provided another temporary transition to relieve the stress on a controller with a limited amount of buttons and still have the basic options. That age is going away with more sophisticated controllers and clearly zero limitations on a PC. Unfortunately, devs are too proud of the code that they wrote for years and delude us if not for stress then claim it for missing tactics.
Quote Posted by jay pettitt
There is a wall in the way. Thanks to contextual controls though, you now have new options. Ergo, your available options are not being limited in number. Just changed. Contextually. Though granted, you might not be able to swoop into a wall all day. But I'm not sure that should be a priority for developers.
Satisfied that jump and swoop get you to the same destination so a game does not owe anything else to a player? No. At a micro level, players know that the game gets them to a destination, but want more about _how_ we get to the spot. At a macro level, players know the end of a game is a goal, but also care about _how_ we decide to get there too. Leave the extra buttons for players to choose how we get to the destination, and not have one contextual button to just put us there. Modifiers have always been able to give us more options on how to get there without one contextual button.
Quote Posted by yxlplig
What would be an example of a new tactical option afforded to us by contextual jumping or leaning? Even hypothetically, if you can't cite anything specifically from the game.
It's hypothetical since EM can not decide yet if contextual buttons or modifiers are the future. They will test our reactions in thief 4 before they unleash all of the contextual button technology possibilities in thief 5. Imagine redistributing as much movement as possible to one contextual button, so lots of other buttons are free for new tactics that must have separate buttons to enjoy.
If EM had their way, you get extra buttons by:
- replacing four buttons for forward, mantle, jump and swoop into one contextual forward button.
- replacing three buttons for lean left-right-forward into one contextual peak button.
- completely removing two buttons for strafe left-right.
- and so on.
EM has extra buttons for new tactics and showoff:
- slide and tumble and roll and cartwheel.
- takedown #1, takedown #2, takedown #3
- multiple takedown #1, multiple takedown #2, multiple takedown #3.
- throw a bottle to distract, drink bottle to enjoy, break bottle for weapon, blackjack with bottle, read message in bottle, spin the bottle for love, piss in bottle for basso, etc
... can be sad for a thief
EM, just put all these back on modifiers if you want your dreams fulfilled without contextual anything (exception, you can still keep your widely supported and fully tested jump/mantle contextual button)
