ANTSHODAN on 22/10/2009 at 23:44
This may only be relevant to TTLGers in Britain, but I'll fill the rest of you in...
For the past week or so the British media has had wonderful time criticising the BBC for allowing Nick Griffin, the leader of the British National Party, a chance to speak, debate and answer questions from the public on the political BBC1 show 'Question Time'.
Tonight the show was aired, and a quick glance at the (
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8319596.stm) BBC (
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8321372.stm) news (
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8321578.stm) website shows just quite how much attention it has been getting both before and after.
Personally I think it
could turn out to be a rather important event in British politics. The audience was almost exclusively anti-BNP and Griffin was shown up to be a deceptive twat. There is talk, particularly on the last link posted above, that it could be an end to politcal apathy in Britain, perhaps enough to seriously turn the tide against the BNP, at least moreso than before.
What do you folks think? Another nail in the coffin for this horrendous political party? A good publicity stunt (in the show, it was claimed by some to be 'an early christmas present for the BNP')?
Do you think it will make citizens in Britain more interested in politics, or do you think that is just optimistic?
Does anyone care?:sweat:
Fingernail on 23/10/2009 at 07:35
I CARE
He came off poorly, but then I am exactly not who the BNP target for support. I can see exactly how his supporters would see the appearance not as a victory (because it was a thrashing in anyone's book) but as evidence of their beliefs being ignored and driven down by the political/media elite pushing their liberal agenda blah blah blah the world is against us etc. what have you
They should have held it in Bradford or somewhere, they might have got some different opinions from the audience. Obviously a London audience is going to reject Griffin.
I honestly believe that most of the million or so people who voted for them in the last election did not really appreciate the weird, silly little beliefs that that man holds, or the extent to which he will attempt to bury his dodgy associations in order to gain popularity and power.
I mean, here is a man whose answer to the question "are you a holocaust denier?" is "I don't have a conviction for holocaust denial."
Matthew on 23/10/2009 at 09:21
I thought sticking up for his buddy the Klan leader was a nice touch.
I guess it wasn't as big a thing here as it was on the mainland, as we're used to thugs metaphorically wrapping themselves in their national flag and trying to look rational on TV.
Namdrol on 23/10/2009 at 10:26
I find his views totally abhorent but I think it's important that he's allowed to air them.
That's the difference between us, and him and his fucked up cronies.
And it's the old unresolvable issue, do you give free speech to groups that will use that right to destroy the privilege of that right?
And the Anti Nazi League do do a good job, but some of the more extreme members are as hidebound and reactionary as those they oppose.
(Although to be fair, without the encumbrance of an evil ideology)
(BTW I saw BNP Wives on Sky 3 the other night. What a bunch of fucked up biatches.)
SD on 23/10/2009 at 12:18
Quote Posted by Namdrol
And the Anti Nazi League do do a good job, but some of the more extreme members are as hidebound and reactionary as those they oppose.
(
Although to be fair, without the encumbrance of an evil ideology)
Nope, I'm pretty sure a goodly proportion of that mob are communists. Flipside of the coin, really: same hate, different scapegoats.
Actually, I suspect if the ANL lot (who are largely drawn from the ranks of the Socialist Workers Party) and BNP lot got together, they would find considerable political overlap, especially on economic policy. I lifted these statements from the BNP website last year:
* Globalisation is bringing ruin and unemployment to our industries and the communities that depend on them
* We will take active steps to break up the socially, economically and politically damaging monopolies now being established by the supermarket giants
* We will seek to give workers a stake in the success and prosperity of
the enterprises whose profits their labour creates by encouraging worker shareholder and co-operative schemes
Which kind of makes a mockery of the canard that the BNP are a party of the far-right, but certainly proves the old adage about extremists of any stripe having more in common than they would care to admit.
Namdrol on 23/10/2009 at 14:02
Yea, it's true, which is why I stopped protesting years ago and decided to sort myself out first.
(And don't forget, it was the Nationlist Socialist Party.)
Extremists of all political stripes often seem believe in that collectivisation trip.
Cos they know best and all the better to control you with.
(generalisations of course ;) )
Aerothorn on 23/10/2009 at 17:17
Ugh. This thing has been annoying me to no end this week. Plastered all over my schools were advertisements for the protest, proclaiming "STOP THE NAZI BNP" and "NAZI-FREE ZONE".
Now, I'll be the first to admit that I don't know much about the BNP (given that they are a strictly local institution without, as far as I can tell, much power in local politics, much less international.) But Nazis? Really? Are they trying to take over Europe? Are they advocating the extermination of all Jews? I'd be pretty surprised if this were the case.
I mentioned this to a classmate (incidentally, also a visting American) and she proclaimed that they "might as well be Nazis." Thankfully, a fellow American chimed in and we tried to explain the fundamentals that led to Godwin's law - namely, that calling anyone "Nazis" is intellectually lazy, and has been so overdone to be meaningless (Bush was a Nazi, now Obama is a Nazi). It's also such an emotionally/historically loaded term that even if the comparison is legitamite it's distracting and sort of overpowering to drag Nazis into it. She would have none of it, of course.
Later I figured out the protest was about the BBC allowing this dude on television.
In other words, they were using protest - a key form of free expression - to protest freedom of expression. Right. To be fair, the British have no First Amendment (Article 10 is the closest thing, I believe), but one hopes that radical leftists, of all people, would appreciate the importance of the marketplace of ideas in a political discourse. Unless they have a strong desire to be censored when the next conservative government comes to power.
SD on 23/10/2009 at 19:31
Quote Posted by Aerothorn
Now, I'll be the first to admit that I don't know much about the BNP (given that they are a strictly local institution without, as far as I can tell, much power in local politics, much less international.) But Nazis? Really? Are they trying to take over Europe? Are they advocating the extermination of all Jews? I'd be pretty surprised if this were the case.
Politically they're probably somewhere around the KKK, insofar as they are white supremacist and avowedly Christian. Only "indigenous Caucasians" can join the party according to its constitution, although a recent court challenge has established that this is illegal, and the BNP will soon be forced to admit non-whites.
Godwin or not, a lot of them
are Nazi-sympathisers. Party founder John Tyndall stated "Mein Kampf is my bible", while current party leader Nick Griffin has indulged in Holocaust denial in the past - views that he (rather unconvincingly) claims to have renounced.
Fingernail on 23/10/2009 at 19:34
The power structure of the party, where all executive power is held by the leader, is also akin to fascist regimes of the past, certainly not democratic ideals as other parties generally embody.
ANTSHODAN on 23/10/2009 at 19:50
Aerothorn, they have 2 seats on the European parliament (so a small degree of international political power), and as far as I can tell, if they were ever to get into power in Britain (hopefully very unlikely), they plan to deport pretty much all "non indiginous" people living there. I wonder where. I'm sure plenty of countries would take in these people should the unlikely situation ever arise - but what if they didn't? Secret genocide?
Now, I'd happily be corrected if I'm wrong, but wasn't it the case during WW2 that the majority of Germans didn't actually know about concentration camps and suchlike. Or rather, they were only rumours?
The way I see it, if the BNP were to get into power, we'd soon be looking at a Britain that resembles the one portrayed in the movie, Children of Men (minus the fertility stuff). If you've seen the movie, you'll know what a horrible hostile environment that would be for so called 'immigrants'. Furthermore, can you imagine a current government in Britain allowing mass deportation? The country would be in uproar. Even if the BNP got in to power (and with our shitty election system, they wouldn't even need a majority), plenty of people would need to be 'turned to their way of thinking'. Sounds a bit...well, I'm not great with my political terms, so please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that rather facist?
I agree there is a certain irony about the protestors outside the BBC using their right to free speech to try to stop someone else's right to free speech. Personally I'm glad the BNP were allowed on the show, as it showed their ineptitude and racism. I speculate that most of the folks protesting, and those who were against the BNP being allowed to speak in a public forum, were mostly against the somewhat abstract concept that it legitimises them as a major political party. Which, I suppose, they are. Perhaps the sentiment should have been more anti-BNP, rather than anti-letting the BNP speak on the BBC.
All the speculation about the BNP getting control of the country, of mass deportation, genocide, facism... Well, its all very pessimistic and I don't really think it will ever come to that.
But if it does... :erm:
