PigLick on 28/3/2006 at 14:14

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haha you might try going outside eh? GAME SERVER

Tony on 28/3/2006 at 18:15

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The members of the other forums I attend take too long to respond to my posts, by several hours. Here you are assured of instant replies. Also, arguing with the simpletons at the other forums is like having a wrestling match with a three year old. Here, you usually get a good argument, not a repeat of the Monty Python sketch.

Tony on 28/3/2006 at 18:22

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Well, I can't very well convince anyone here that the P-38 was able to outturn an Me-109, can I? No one here probably even knows what they are, let alone has seen an official document on one of them. And I've yet to find a place where people understand me when I speak in Hg. MAP.

Raven on 28/3/2006 at 18:39

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hey, I definately think space chat has a place here.... it save me money, why buy New Scientist?

Tony on 29/3/2006 at 02:49

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Problem is, P-38 is the most misdocumented object in history. The Pilot's Manual for the Lockheed P-38 was wrong. And that was official USAAF! But, for the record, all P-38 models outturned their contemporary Me-109. That means P-38F outturned Me-109F, P-38G outturned Me-109Gs before Me-109G-6, P-38J outturned Me-109G-14, and P-38L outturned Me-109G-10 and Me-109K. I would guess that all P-38s outturned all Me-109s, since manueverability of both the P-38 and Me-109 (as with nearly all warbirds) remained similar in all models. Weight increases were offset by power increases. The FW-190 was an exception, since they added more and more armour and weaponry, which is much more heavy than modified engines, avionics, and other such goodies.

The only good news about the information problem is that, if you google "109 out turn P-38" or "P-38 out turn 109," you'll only get confirmation about what I say. At least, with all the false information on the P-38 out there, they got something right. Beware of the flight simulator links! Flight simulators 100% of the time get this relationship dead wrong, as computer programmers don't know squat about aerodynamics and make the common, foolish assumption that "big = unmaneuverable" and program the P-38 to turn like a boat. Anyone who's seen an F-15 do a demonstration at an airshow knows that this mentality is false!

Fact is, P-38 did have a high weight and wingload, which ordinarily makes an airplane turn and climb badly. But the P-38 had a very high lift wing; it had a high chord ratio, an unmatched aspect ratio (1/8; P-51 and Me-109 were about 1/6), and a good taper ratio. Add to this that it was the only fighter in the European Theater to be equipped with Fowler flaps, which give 60% more lift then conventional flaps, and that those flaps were located directly behind the twin engines, the P-38 was really quite an impressive turner. It turned, with manuever flaps, better than the P-51, P-47, FW-190, and Me-109, turned as well as the P-63, and turned almost as well as the Spitfire. Richard Bong and Tom McGuire, the leading American aces of all time, both had no problem going 'round and 'round with Zekes (Zeroes) and Oscars. Both of them got all of their kills in the P-38, by the way.

As for power and speed, the most commonly quoted figures (even in America's Hundred Thousand), are 1600 horspower from 60 Hg. MAP and 3000 R.P.M., and top speed is 414 M.P.H.. The problem is, the P-38L was capable, right out of the factory, of about 2000 horsepower, from 75 Hg. MAP and 3200 R.P.M.. I've seen official memorandums to crew chiefs that the "official" limit was 66 Hg., which gives over 1750 horspower (I haven't calculated it, but 64 Hg. gives 1725 and 70 Hg. gives about 1890). And I've seen official reports stating that 75 Hg. was successfully tested and "probably" will be authorized immediately.

Another problem is that 414 M.P.H. figure. What no one realizes is, that speed was derived using military power - 54 Hg. and 3000 R.P.M.. Remember, 66 Hg. and 3200 R.P.M. was definitely authorized and used in combat, 70 Hg. almost certainly was, and 75 Hg. was at least tested with positive results and quite probably used in combat. The actual top speed of the P-38L, according to Warren Bodie*, was approximately 440 M.P.H.. And the P-38K, which never quite made production, gained an additional 20 M.P.H. soley from receiving paddle propellers, putting the maximum speed at 460 M.P.H.. This figure so close to the dive limit, 470 M.P.H., that they would have had to make the dive flaps incremental just to fly straight and level at maximum speed at altitude.

The only truly reliable sources I have seen for the P-38 are Warren Bodie, Jeff Ethell, and Arthur Heiden. Warren Bodie is the only author ever to have actually talked to Clarence "Kelly" Johnson, co-designer of the P-38 and designer of the F-80, SR-71 Blackbird, U-2, and F-105 Starfighter. All other authors simply assumed. Bodie's book contains a preface by Kelly himself stating that all content therein is true to the best of his knowledge and that the book is the most accurate he has seen. Bodie actually was friends with Johnson, General Kelsey, and other men close and vital to the P-38 project and Skunk Works.

Jeff Ethell's dad Irv flew the 38 in the war, with four confirmed air kills, and Jeff flew more warbirds than any other civilian pilot. Captain Arthur Heiden flew in the war, also with at least four confirmed air kills.

Just remember, when researching the P-38, that most of the data out there was spawned by one incorrect official document, and everyone parroted the faulty data. Compound this with the fact that pilots were usually not trained for twin engined aircraft and that the P-38 itself was a pioneer in both the heavy fighter role (something which the F-15 is the modern descendent of), and of high speed aircraft. The P-38 was the first aircraft to top 400 M.P.H. in level flight, and the first American airplane to encounter the frightening phenomenon of compressibilty (though certainly not the last).

Therefore, it received a lot of stigma, especially because the early models were physically miserable, a problem compounded by the aircraft's marvellous ability to stay in the air for hours and travel thousands of miles. The cockpits were so cold at high altitudes before the P-38J that the pilot's relief tube often would partially freeze. The next time the pilot performed a negative gee maneuver, urine would splash onto the canopy and freeze instantly, obscuring vision.