NEW PODCAST - BLACK PARADE f. Fire Mage & Skacky - by Supremcee
Supremcee on 24/9/2019 at 18:03
Quote Posted by zacharias
He worked on the Boyle Party level, that's well known. Granted they split level design and architectural detailing(?) into different jobs so it's not entirely his level. Anyway, I liked that level plenty, for sure one of the best in the game.
But I still say the distinction between amateur and professional, auteur vs hired gun is an interesting one to debate. Obviously I'm in the minority there. If one of the best designers is only responsible for 0-2% of the content, that's a systemic problem right there, I'd say. Anyway, sorry for the minor derail. :p
I think the 0-2% is a bit low....what Mat tried to say is that in comparison to a one man mission, in such a professional project there a way more factors that have influence on that process. As Anthony said in the podcast that with the people that helped him, more features entered the final product and changed the scale etc. This were maybe 5 people on CL, on Dishonored there are way more, then there are time and financial factors that you have to keep in mind etc.....so no matter how big his influence is in such a project there are still more influencing factors that have a bigger impact etc. so a comparison is pretty difficult. It's like comparing a bike to a car....yeah both bring you from a to b but constructing them and how they work is totally different.
And you don't have to say sorry, a discussion is what a forum keeps alive ;)
Mat99 on 24/9/2019 at 18:23
Quote Posted by zacharias
But I still say the distinction between amateur and professional, auteur vs hired gun is an interesting one to debate.
The point is You can't compare it :) End of debate ;P
Remember we even don't know what is his and we don't know what exactly he created. His 100% of creation was (for sure) devastated, neutered, flattened and perfectly fit to the average consumer who NEED/MUST to buy it, otherwise it will be no profit to the company.
Even if he created a piece of art, we never be able to see that in the game because the art is not commercial... He could i.e. wrote a beautiful readable, but then we have dozens of various departments because the texts must be confirmed, and confirmed at all levels. On each of them we have an accountant with his notebook and calculator:
"ouu... the text is too long... no, no, no, crop it, because every ADHD kid could be frustrated... We can't allow it. It won't bring benefits. And you want to translate so BIG text to the other languages? Bankruptcy! CROP IT!".
"ouu... there are Difficult Words in the text... no, no, no, cut it, because every 9-old kid won't understand it, and most of the 20-30 year old console-players are mentally like 12-old kids (we know it because of big data) and they are our main target! They just HAVE TO buy it and not be frustrated in any case. We can't allow for difficult and sophisticated words, it won't bring benefits - CUT THEM!"
"ouu... there are riddles in the text... no no, no, we have tags and markers in the game, so they are completely pointless. Players might be confused or something. It won't sell. We can't allow it."
Purah probably had absolutely no control about such processes and what we see at the end as the "Final Product" might be something completely different of what Purah had in his mind... So, instead of presumable piece of Text Art, we have a poo molded by the taste of typical, average, potential gameplayer-kid or child-mind person, because they NEED to sell the product, so all the texts must be extra safe...
Level design? Same thing... "cornices?, ornaments? what for? who will see that - we need more FPS because of more BLOOOOOD... we will call it as an "Optimization Process" later, and no one will cry".
I bet Purah didn't even see the D's Map Editor and didn't know how to use it :) (or I'm wrong?) Who then edited it? Hired people. They need to edit fast (because the time is the money), and they need to be cheap (because... money is the money and the company cannot afford too much loss), and if they are cheap - the only thing they can do good is fast editing ;) No architecture specialists, and other professionals. OK, they have an assist above them - bunch of Level Designers and Art-Specialists, so by visual all levels are nice, but... yeah...). So, they could even messed up the things (because of the lack of art knowledge) which Purah (or other with 12 LD) designed... (most probably sketches and drawings?)
Supposedly:
If Purah had a free hand to do everything he want. The way he want to design, the things he want to put in, the texts he want to associate with other things, etc. If he had all those other Level Designers, Projectants, Graphics Designers and other Creators as subordinates to manage them. Then You could compare Purah's CL vs Purah's D. and even then it wouldn't be 1:1, because of One Person Project vs main Art-Designer + many of the others Project, but the main hmm... CORE of both could be compared at least in some parts and specifics.
So we have no answer to Your question actually ;P You can only guess... In my opinion: Purah has The Thing inside himself (an Art-Soul). If you have it, you never lost it. I believe he tried as he could. If he drop down the art quality somewhere, it's not because of his will, but because of will of accountants. He might even have in his agreement-contract what he could do and what he couldn't (creativity killed at the very beginning). There is no point in trying wherever the 'final product' will be averaged and cropped into the mainstream anyway...
skacky on 24/9/2019 at 18:29
You have a very comical and very exaggerated vision of game development, especially when it comes to Arkane.
Supremcee on 24/9/2019 at 18:53
Quote Posted by skacky
You have a very comical and very exaggerated vision of game development, especially when it comes to Arkane.
*edited* ah sorry I didn't see Mats post....agreed skacky
Mat99 on 24/9/2019 at 18:54
Quote Posted by skacky
You have a very comical and very exaggerated vision of game development
Ahh it was exaggerated on purpose as an example what could be and to provoke the discussion :) It doesn't mean it WAS in that way for sure or it is that way TODAY in all the dev companies :) But some of them are definitely suffering from putting profit over the artistic level. DEFINITELY.
zacharias on 24/9/2019 at 22:39
Quote Posted by Mat99
The point is You can't compare it :) End of debate ;P
Yeah, it's probably a fruitless comparison, I'll grant you. The problem is my brain just wants to go there. Part of me wants him to remain a middle manager and keep making Thief fm's ;)
For the rest of what you said: yeah I kind of know all that, although it's very exaggerated. Arkane seems like they do things too old school/crafted/artistic for their own good anyway. Risky, because then you're only one big failed project away from trouble.
Even if he created a piece of art, we never be able to see that in the game because the art is not commercial.Sorry but this makes no sense at all. Games
are commercial art. And as you implied, all the outstanding tasks are well catalogued in a production environment. Any artwork produced will be for a specific purpose or general concepting/design purposes. They don't work on stuff at random, in general.
Anyway, who's next for the podcast? Sledge would be awesome to get if at all possible - Inverted Manse and Thief 3(!)
Mat99 on 25/9/2019 at 14:18
Quote Posted by zacharias
Yeah, it's probably a fruitless comparison, I'll grant you.
The age-old problem is whether a pear or an apple is better ;)
Quote Posted by zacharias
Part of me wants him to remain a middle manager and keep making Thief fm's ;)
That is probably the wish of many people here as You can see in "what author would you see come back" thread. He was very pleased that people were still playing his missions, who knows - maybe something is triggered in his mind already after the podcast? :) As Yandros said: he refused politely to participate in '20th T2 contest', so You can't expect it soon, but in the other hand - would You foresee an almost 1,5 hour interview with Purah this year? :) You never know. OK - it's a "fool's hope", but still hope :) Who knows what will happen in the far future even if he don't have such plans today. And even Alex said somewhere above that he's sad he will never speak with Purah again, but... I would not be so 100% sure :)
Quote Posted by zacharias
For the rest of what you said: yeah I kind of know all that, although it's very exaggerated.
Hah :D It seemed rather strange to me that someone could take this deadly seriously after the tons of sarcasm pouring out there :) When the level of absurdity is in red field and out of scale you should know or guess it's such a wink. Even the digits/numbers was exaggerated (like my: 0,2% with additional 'smile' at the end) because not the values, but weight between them (Calendra vs D) was the most important there. You can't just measure them precisely to get the concrete values :) However, no matter how the values are it's easy to see how much heavier one is than the other. When you exaggerated - the weights are more visible than they are in reality.
Quote Posted by zacharias
Even if he created a piece of art, we never be able to see that in the game because the art is not commercial.Sorry but this makes no sense at all. Games are commercial art.
"commercial art" <- that is oxymoron for me :) After cutting we have:
"games are art" - Hmm... YES and NO at the same time, because it depend of which games are You talking about (definitely not all of them) and for whom they are. Again - how can You measure that... 'level of art' or how You define it, if this is completely different thing for each of us? :)
In Calendra's Purah could express himself (even if there were engine limitations, lack of knowledge how to do something, etc. problems), in D. even if he want to - he couldn't. And my point was we never be able to see what was his full creation for D. and how many we actually have in the final release.
There were also additional things that made up the entire creation process: kind of initial notes, temporary texts, later notes in the margins, and finally some kind of 100% text he wrote. Then it must be compared and matched with what other 8 people have written and because Purah was storyteller not essential-writer it is DEFINITELY not 100% what he created or what he could.
There was walls he cannot overcome as he was among other writers and LDs (he was a part of the 'machine'). Another thing: PEGI-18 :) When Purah was creating some text, knowing this, did he thinking: "hmm... 18, but let's be real - every single 13yo kid will play the game." So did something like that isn't like Hand-Brake to the creativity? OK, there is a hard language (curse-words) in the game, but... did he put 100% of what he want? or did he refrain? I doubt he had such things in mind during Calendra's creation and I'm not talking about brutal-language. His mind was free and he could do what he want.
If you create something for a specific order where the framework is specified - the art-ingredient disappears... And what others called art in such cases is just... taste. Nowadays, personal tastes are created by the companies... so You can't call it art anymore (but presumably no more than POP-art). Where tastes was created there is end of the art... And we have this thing in the games, in the films/movies and lastly in the TV-series. This is just a set of 'averaged values' that are to be liked and to be "to the taste" of most + many things need to be calculated, because they will not survive 'the next season'. The perfect balance (art vs sell) is the key and it is not a linear relationship.
There is no question of an Art in that case. So I stay with what You have
bolded in quote-area: "the art is not commercial" :)
Quote Posted by zacharias
Anyway, who's next for the podcast? Sledge would be awesome to get if at all possible - Inverted Manse and Thief 3(!)
STEPHEN RUSSELL - Alex we all believe in You ;)
Supremcee on 25/9/2019 at 17:52
Quote Posted by Mat99
...
STEPHEN RUSSELL - Alex we all believe in You ;)
No we have Garret himself planned but :rolleyes:
But serious..we are always open for suggestions..best if you have a good way to contact those persons!
Psych0sis on 26/9/2019 at 00:40
Jesus mat can you please tone down the emoticons, it's just egregious at this point.
Purgator on 26/9/2019 at 13:45
So long as his post isn't deliberately rude, profane or denigrating to any particular member I don't really see an issue with Matt's use of emoticons.
:-)
