ZylonBane on 24/3/2011 at 02:57
I don't know why the smeg you're going on about shadows, when my point quite clearly was that the game just up and tells the player where every NPC is, reducing what should be tense and immersive to an elaborate version of Pac-Man.
heywood on 24/3/2011 at 03:01
I was thinking primarily of DX and IW where you rely mostly on cover to hide with limited opportunities to use shadows. But even with shadows, your vision is limited when looking into them, so it's a two-way street.
My point is that there has to be believable consequences to hiding otherwise the cover system is just a cheat and you can't really call it stealth gameplay.
sNeaksieGarrett on 24/3/2011 at 03:42
Third person = being able to see your surroundings better b/c of FOV. = less challenge when it comes to stealth.
First Person = Being able to see your surroundings, but not as well as a third person game, thus making stealth more challenging. (at least hypothetically speaking..)
There. Does it really need to be explained any more?
Quote Posted by heywood
My point is that there has to be believable consequences to hiding otherwise the cover system is just a cheat and you can't really call it stealth gameplay.
I don't fully agree. It's still stealth, you're still hiding... again, it's just easier to sneak around. (At least, that's what I'd think...)
Chade on 24/3/2011 at 03:56
Zylonbane, you mentioned difficulty, not immersion. I agree that this is a less immersive way of going about stealth.
Heywood, is your vision really that limited by shadows? The ideal ambient lighting level should make small object hard to find in shadows, but I don't think it's meant to make guards hard to spot. It's true that DX1 and 2 have less opportunity to use shadows to observe guards, but I don't think that makes them better stealth games.
I don't think that stealth needs to give the player believable consequences for hiding in some corner somewhere. Certainly the thief games make it easy to stay put and not go anywhere. Sooner or later, the player is going to have to venture out of hiding and move somewhere.
Of course, that's not the direction DX3 is taking. Judging by the mechanics, the player will have less opportunity to stay put in safe places, but more power while moving through unsafe territory. That might mean less flitting from safe spot to safe spot, and more careful movement through unsafe territory. Or it might just mean more air ducts.
EDIT: Sneaksie, thats ... not really addressing anything I've said. Holding all other things constant, giving the player more ability to see guards will make stealth easier. But they're changing other mechanics as well.
heywood on 24/3/2011 at 05:12
Have you played the Thief games? There were dark areas where you couldn't hardly see in and you had to choose between bumbling around in the dark or using a flare and potentially attracting attention to yourself. And of course there were lots of lit areas where you could hide in the dark if you extinguished a torch with a water arrow, but drawing and firing the arrow could potentially reveal yourself. Anyway, I digress.
If you can effectively see through objects and walls because of the detached 3rd person view, and thus hide with no loss of situational awareness, it's going to remove the tension and suspense associated with sneaking around.
We've known about the 3rd person cover system for a long time, so obviously I expected the perspective to change when entering cover. But I did not expect the camera to position itself such that you can look around 360 deg.
Chade on 24/3/2011 at 11:51
Thief had ambient lighting, so the darkest light level depended on the player's graphics settings. I must admit I never had the game so dark that I couldn't see guards moving in shadows.
Although, speaking of digressing, I did try to design a level with no ambient lighting once. If only I had had the discipline to finish it ... I do think there's lots of cool things you do without ambient lighting, such as only turn on ligts when a monster is nearby. (And you could still have ambient lighting in rooms which needed it.)
I guess what I'm trying to say is that the ability too see guards without being seen is also provided by shadows. So the cover system only adds an ability that they took away in the first place by removing shadows. A very important ability too: if you can't gather at least partial information on guards without being seen, then you can't sneak.
Of course a cover system is not a drop in replacement for shadows. It will make it harder to design levels with lots of safe spots for the player. It will make it easier to design levels which let the player keep tabs on all the guards. Ultimately though, it all depends on the level design. But you can't say that switching from shadows to a cover system will automatically make the game easier. They are both different tools the player can use to gather information without being seen.
LancerChronics on 24/3/2011 at 13:38
It's so...... brown.
:(
Renzatic on 24/3/2011 at 18:10
More like orange. This is the most orange game I've ever seen in my entire life. Not that I consider that a bad thing, exactly. It's a pretty interesting style. It's like the whole game takes place in the outskirts of a city at night, and everything is lit by sodium vapor lamps.
sNeaksieGarrett on 24/3/2011 at 19:12
Quote Posted by Chade
Holding all other things constant, giving the player more ability to see guards will make stealth easier.
That's what I was getting at. :erg:
Which is why people hate 3rd person in Thief games. If Deus Ex has stealth, then it needs to be first person for you to feel more challenged, IMO at least. Not that 3rd person in general is necessarily bad (just works for console games for example), but coupled with stealth it just makes it less dangerous for the player I think.
Papy on 24/3/2011 at 23:13
Quote Posted by Chade
Of course a cover system is not a drop in replacement for shadows. It will make it harder to design levels with lots of safe spots for the player.
Considering that with a cover system any object could become a safe spot to observe guards, I have a bit of difficulty understanding what you mean.
