Daraan on 5/12/2017 at 12:29
As Derek said Stunned should be removed. Flashbomb + Club to strong. FunFact: During T2 development the BlackJack caused blindness=>stunned=>Ultimate Weapon.
•What I really liked was the
stack/ammunition option is CoSaS MX you had a 100% chance for a silent knockout but it would cost ammunition and added a strategic element to it. You had to consider its worth and couldn't bash out everyone.
•Another idea that came to my mind is that with a little script (also possible with NVRelayTrap) you could give the blackjack a success chance. Honestly how does such small Blackjack work so good?
My scenario would be for example a 40% chance for silent knockout and maybe 20% against alerted AIs. In a 1v1 situation even if the first attempt fails you will knock out that guard without problems (3-5 hits) but in a group/crowded area you would have to take a high risk. As if you fail the rest gets alerted.
While the chance could be pseudo random to prevent bypassing it via savegames I feel another more psychological problem - while actually more realistic and you actually have a chance for a silent knockout vs groups - I think the player would likely want to know what will happen for sure so would be more willing to accept a 100% alarm instead of a 60% failure resulting in an alarm. So I would dismiss that idea again. How do you feel/think about that?
Quote:
Players have to be aware of it in your mission since it is a very deeply rooted part of the gameplay mechanic that KO'd AI don't wake up.
This is something that we have to keep in mind. Regardless of the specifics! For the wake up option (do we really want to open that discussion here again?) I could also imagine some ammo system like gags and ropes which permanently knock out AIs (could be made with a Key-Lock system) and you would have the chance to explain it in the LoadOut.
In conclusion I think what Derek summarized
Quote:
The major alert sound on bjack_flesh is definitely a good solution to prevent something like the triple KO on the three-guard patrol in the "First City Bank and Trust". But as far as I know it sets the guards nearby to Alert 3 instead of Alert 2. I wish there was something like a middle ground that only alert guards to level 2. But in the end, I guess it's better than having no sound while blackjacking everyone nearby. Also, a bump on the head is a loud noise, so a major alert is somewhat justified.
is a good approach/basic idea. Currently I don't know the range of that setup (I'm not getting it to work) and if it's to much but I think we can figure out something good from it.
DarkThief Darek on 6/12/2017 at 22:45
Quote Posted by Yandros
IIRC, way back when (probably 2003-05), DarkArrow figured out a simple gamesys change which limits the blackjack's effectiveness to the head joint only so you could no longer KO an AI by whacking them on the knee. I'll try to find the thread.
I hope you can find the post. Sounds interesting to play around with it. The only problem I currently can't fix is the KO through closed doors trick. My weak point system prevented it, but as I said, it created tons of new problems.
I also thought about waking the AI up after a certain amount of "sleeping" time, but either way, it would impact the gameplay too heavily and I think many players don't read the readme files ... so they will rage if they walk into already knocked out AIs. :D
Never heard of the stack/ammunition option. Pretty awesome how creative some creators are. :D
But I guess it's a more complex system to build into the own system and can be quite confusing for the normal Thief player.
LarryG on 6/12/2017 at 22:56
ya think?
downwinder on 8/12/2017 at 00:49
after reading some of this post ,the best solution is to put helmets on a.i.
Tafferwocky on 12/12/2017 at 12:03
How about a slightly different approach?
One of the big problems with a blackjack play-style is that it's very easy to just knock out guards en masse and leave them sprawled there in a dark corridor. Other AIs can walk right past or even on top of the unconscious (or dead) bodies without noticing. If you could force players to take more care with hiding the bodies, to place them in cupboards and rooms out of the way of guard patrols instead of simply leaving them there, it would certainly provide a bit more challenge and inconvenience if they played that way, not to mention adding a bit more realism.
I know that Island of Iron made some tweaks to AI behaviour such that they could see other AIs more easily (but not see the player any better than in vanilla), although I've not looked in to how this was accomplished. Perhaps you could also set an automatic detection if they come so extremely close to a body that they're practically walking over it, but I'm sure some of the Dromed wizards here know more!
nicked on 12/12/2017 at 12:33
You could probably attach a tiny dynamic light to each AI - not enough to shine on anything, but enough to make bodies visible.
DarkThief Darek on 12/12/2017 at 15:34
Quote Posted by Tafferwocky
Other AIs can walk right past or even on top of the unconscious (or dead) bodies without noticing. If you could force players to take more care with hiding the bodies, to place them in cupboards and rooms out of the way of guard patrols instead of simply leaving them there, it would certainly provide a bit more challenge and inconvenience if they played that way, not to mention adding a bit more realism
Good that you mention it. I played around that idea as well in the past.
But sadly, I never got it to work properly.
I changed the
AI > Utility > Visibility control Low light from
13 to
2.
With that, the AI will get immediately to alert 3 when they walk over the body in complete darkness, but they will shout the "go to attack"-speech instead of the "found body"-speech and will never search around and just resume patrolling. (pretty weird behaviour)
I don't know what is happening, maybe someone can help me out here?
But beside that, it's definitely a good way to make blackjacking harder.
But it's only a small change, because with the original Blackjack design you can simple run around and knock out everyone, regardless if they see dead body’s lying around or not.
Cataphract on 16/2/2020 at 02:09
Because of how common gas items are in Thief 3, I never use the blackjack. So you could just be generous with such items, a nice way to limit knockouts without it feeling artificial.
Hit Deity on 16/2/2020 at 16:13
Quote Posted by Cataphract
Because of how common gas items are in Thief 3, I never use the blackjack. So you could just be
generous with such items, a nice way to
limit knockouts without it feeling artificial.
Those are mutually exclusive. If you're generous with the gas items, there will be even more knockouts, and thus the game would be even easier.
ZylonBane on 16/2/2020 at 16:30
Quote Posted by Cataphract
Because of how common gas items are in Thief 3...
This is the Thief 1/2 editing forum, not Thief 3.