NEO Plus 10 page DX3 article

DDL on 17/6/2010 at 16:32

Well..technically you can K/O strong. But yeah, he's the only guy who has to actually spawncarcass()..

(though actually, killswitching gunther and anna makes them explode() rather than spawncarcass(), but that is probably minutiae territory)

:D

negativeliberty on 18/6/2010 at 03:40

Quote Posted by YogSo

I didn't know the bad blackjack mechanic in TDS had anything to do with the game being or not TPP. So, because yo can play in third-person now you can't use the blackjack as a melee weapon? Seriously, what's the connection? If anything, I would say the 'restricted' blackjack use was in direct answer to the designers' misguided desire to streamline (i.e. dumb down) the game mechanics.

Well Subjective Effect already answered this:

Quote Posted by Subjective Effect

One could argue that the auto-raise when-in-range blackjack was there because it's too hard to judge distance in 3rd person mode.

The only reason for being in TPP, imho, is for sustained melee combat and even then Dark Messiah did it in FPP without problems.

Having the option to play the game in FPP throughout should be a no-brainer. If you want to switch or have the option to allow auto-switching or any combination of that's fine by me. Just give me FPP if I want it.

Which was exactly what I meant, thanks.

Quote Posted by YogSo

I barely used any gun in the game, so it was melee all the way for me. I really didn't have much trouble, but maybe it was because I spent 90 % of the time stealth-killing the enemies IIRR. Notable exceptions were the infamous sewer levels and the boss-kind encounters. In any case, you state that "melee combat is utterly boring, feels clumsy and inaccurate, animations are jerky, it's unsatisfying" in Bloodlines, as if that was a direct consequence of the third-person perspective. And that is utter nonsense. Melee combat can be enjoyable in TPP (Severance - The Blade of Darkness, Jedi Outcast/Jedi Academy) or less than stellar in FPP (Morrowind, Arx Fatalis). And vice versa (Dark Messiah>Gothic I-II-III in terms of melee combat). The programmers' and animators' skills and how much time/budget they had to implement and improve the combat system is the key, not the camera perspective.

Now you're putting words in my mouth. You used VTMB as an example of a mixed first-third person game in which you found the forced third-person gameplay enjoyable, while it's literally the worst attribute of the game.

I can understand if you'd said that you enjoyed VTMB despite of the flaws of third-person gameplay, but I have a hard time believing you actually enjoyed it more because of it, and not just because it was poorly implemented (which is a common failing, considering how almost impossible it is to accommodate both views without one compromising the other).

Yakoob on 18/6/2010 at 04:41

Quote Posted by negativeliberty

I can understand if you'd said that you enjoyed VTMB despite of the flaws of third-person gameplay, but I have a hard time believing you actually enjoyed it more because of it

I cant believe there are people who like pineapple, I mean, banana is TOTALLY a better fruit!

Jesus christ ttlg, stop telling people what the fuck they like. I liked the TPP in VTMB, it made sneaking and melee easier and actually added to the atmosphere, allowing me to see my character casually strut through the LA streets at night.

negativeliberty on 18/6/2010 at 11:51

Quote Posted by Yakoob

:rolleyes: Since when do I speak on behalf of ttlg? Don't pretend this is purely about preference; VTMB's third-person gameplay was a mess, pure and simple. Which is why it's well within reason to doubt when someone claims they think it made the game so much better.

Quote Posted by CVG

Perhaps the game's biggest shortfall is the third-person melee combat, which is clumsy, unbalanced and fairly unsatisfying. While the first-person shooting sections are entertaining and challenging, - though very occasionally enemies won't respond when shot - these third-person encounters feel utterly out of kilter with the rest of the game

Matthew on 18/6/2010 at 13:26

TTLG in can't legislate for opinions shocker

More at 11

ZylonBane on 18/6/2010 at 15:17

Quote Posted by negativeliberty

You used VTMB as an example of a mixed first-third person game in which you found the forced third-person gameplay enjoyable, while it's literally the worst attribute of the game.

No, the worst attribute of Bloodlines is the endgame mook slog.

Eldron on 18/6/2010 at 15:57

Actuall, you're both wrong.

Valve was the worst thing with bloodlines.

ZylonBane on 18/6/2010 at 17:15

Very few of the many, many bugs that Bloodlines shipped with can be attributed to the early Source engine it runs on. Without the Source engine, we wouldn't have had the fantastic facial animation that forms a huge part of the appeal of the game's characters.

DDL on 18/6/2010 at 18:52

And don't forget the boob jiggle!

Even when so, so inappropriate, it's still a hilarious implementation of physics.

YogSo on 18/6/2010 at 21:40

Quote Posted by negativeliberty

No, no, no. I've never said I liked Bloodlines more because of the TPP. I did say that I loved stealth-killing with the katana. And I did say, as you have put it, that I "found the forced third-person gameplay enjoyable", if by enjoyable we mean "not annoying, not immersion breaking and definitely not getting in the way of my enjoyment of the game".

(Incidentally, saying something is "the worst attribute" of a game doesn't equal saying that something is "bad" in and on itself, especially if the game in question is such a classic as Bloodlines. In any case, I agree with ZB: the worst part of Bloodlines is the endgame).

In my last post I was disagreeing with you when you said (your words, again, not me putting anything in your mouth):

Quote Posted by negativeliberty

First person gameplay is fun, although the stat-based shooting takes getting used to as with DX, however third-person mucked it up good. Third-person melee combat is utterly boring, feels clumsy and inaccurate, animations are jerky, it's unsatisfying and to be honest if gunplay wasn't so underpowered by comparison I wouldn't have bothered with it at all.

From my understanding, you were explicitly saying:

Bloodlines first person combat ---> fun, with some quirks.
Bloodlines third person combat ---> boring, clumsy, innacurate and unsatisfying.

And my answer was:

Bloodlines third person combat ---> not as bad as you paint it, but I 'stealthed' my way for the most part, so didn't fight a lot.
Bad third person combat ---> boring, clumsy, inaccurate and unsatisfying.
Good third person combat ---> fun, skilled, accurate and satisfying.
Bad first person combat ---> boring, clumsy, inaccurate and unsatisfying.

And I gave examples of games in the latter two categories.

So, to sum up my point: IMHO arguing if the incoming DEHR game is going to suck or is going to be great (there's never middle ground on the internets) just because it has or has not forced third person perspective whenever a stealth attack happens is a moot point at this time: it depends on the implementation of said sequences. The general consensus is that everything is better if the game keeps the player in first person perspective all the time. And in general, I agree with that. But there are always exceptions: I found the first person implementation of the blackjack in TDS both awful and immersion breaking*, and the third person perspective stealth kills in Bloodlines both 'in character' and awesome (especially with the katana).

* And I still don't buy the idea that the blackjack is the way it is in TDS because of the TPP, because, if anything, as many have pointed up, it is easier to judge distances in third than in first person perspective.