negativeliberty on 10/6/2010 at 06:24
Quote Posted by Chade
While this doesn't apply to every continuity issue raised, there's always going to be some unavoidable conflict between achieving straight technological progress while also trying to come up with the most interesting augmentations possible. They couldn't get around that, even if they wanted to (which, thank god, they don't).
I have to disagree. They could have if they wanted to. At least sufficiently to bridge the gap.
The DX high-level world concept about nano-tech augmentations:
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Nano-augmented humans are resented by their mechanically augmented brothers and sisters.
They're as powerful as mechanically augmented humans but suffer none of the stigma associated with augmentation. They can pass through airport security and mingle with humans freely.
Now this issue has been mentioned already, but DX's nano-tech was basically similar in application to mechanical augs, in that they often had the same functionality in the DX timeline, ie; we know that Anna also had invisibility, and this can be considered one of the most advanced augs. So in DX's 2052, mechanical augs have roughly the same functionality as nano-tech, or more precisely, nano-tech has roughly the same functionality as mechanical augmentation, but is less invasive (depending on your definition of course) and more socially acceptable (but can only be 'installed' in certain individuals).
So how do they go from DX's mechanical augmentation in 2052, "back" to:
* The effin
Claymore aug (which is a pretty much VTMB's Thaumaturgy without the defense, and it makes no sense whatsoever)
*
Mind control/reading (again, some weird steal from a variety of sources, in aug form)
*
Wrist-blades/swords. Well I don't think I have to mention the "inspiration" here.
*
Wall-punch. Just stupid. Imagine a non-destructive game world, now add a few concrete walls with soft spots conveniently located at key spots. Now imagine not being able to demolish anything else except crates, stationary, some glass and tv/computer screens. :rolleyes:
*
Splayed hands. ???? Ehm, useful for rotating people by the head?
*
Icarus landing system. Combination of speed and silent running (why?). So what made them decide this wasn't powerful enough and needed a bloody multi-stun-functionality?
If these augs are an indication, the rest isn't going to be any better.
They should've simply stuck to known augs, add some more which actually make an iota of sense, and built the rest of the game around the use of these augs. They could've made the augs more useful than even DX did, yet they chose for augs and gameplay based on a wholly different mindset, that of the instant-gratification shiny sparkly brutal violence addicted consumer.
Sure, we'll get to play other aspects, stealth and such. Except I get the feeling that in Dugas' view "stealth and such" is just a different and sneakier or more efficient/lucrative way of brutalising your way through the game, and it's just there to provide a bit of relief from shooting bombs in all directions and rotating people's heads off of their spines.
Ostriig on 10/6/2010 at 13:27
Quote Posted by DDL
"So ve vill be terrible gray golems to scare the childr..oh a coat! Vunderbar!"
Okay, I lold.
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Seriously though, nanotech is vastly more invasive than mechanical augmentation: would you rather lose an arm, or be entirely infested with nanites?
But I'm still not giving you this one. Nevermind what I'd choose (nanites), imagine you're one of those (
http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=Fv_Xq8cEbG8&feature=related) delightful people in advertising, which product would you find easier to market to end-users? It's the nanites, there's simply no way around this. It doesn't really matter what goes on inside, as far as you as the subject can tell, you're still all fleshy and, well,
you.
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Ultimately, everything about HR is just looking too shiny and "awesome", when the predominant theme throughout DX was pretty much "fuck me, this place went to
shit".
But it
does make sense there's so much sheen in the context of the setting, this is the period right before it all went to shit. And I don't think it's all going to look that way, I'm very eager to see Shanghai's lower level and other such areas, for instance.
I will grant you that the augs are pretty out there and advanced, but there are some allowances we have to make for the sake of an interesting game. I still think some of them shouldn't be there, like the Claymore (gigantic WTF), but there's nothing in there that will make me go "shit, they
ruined the Deus Ex fiction". Just a few things I'm willing to turn a blind eye to if the rest of the setting is interesting and the gameplay is good.
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And why was gunther so damn whiny?
Because he
wanted lemon-lime!
Quote Posted by chris the cynic
First, I don't buy monetary restrictions as being much of a problem for MJ12.
These people owned China, they owned the largest corporation on earth, if you're willing to believe what the Devs told us outside the game MJ12's boss was a trillionaire. They spent 50 billion on JC.
I only brought that up as a possible context for why mech augs might look more "spartan" in 2052 than in 2027, where companies might focus more exclusively on their product's functionality at the expense of aesthetics in an attempt to drop costs. This is all in the line of thought that Jacques-Belletete's comment on Adam being able to go our for dinner was meant to suggest his augs should look less unpleasant than Gunther's, not that they should be somehow altogether easy to conceal.
I don't think there's any point in comparing DX3 to some theoretical, initial design for the setting that DX1 itself doesn't match up to. The original game just doesn't support the "no coats" idea, and frankly I don't think the two concepts you linked to do much for it either.
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Of course the important thing isn't why the couldn't, it is that the fact that they couldn't was important to the setting.
You're making an assumption here, in that the stigma carried by mechanical augmentation is the result of it being
immediately identifiable in
any conditions, regardless of extent or clothing. That doesn't have to be the case - even if certain extents of mech augmentation could be rudimentarily concealed in the field, an agent would still have to face the associated stigma in their personal life. Having to be fully covered at all times to avoid identification as a mech would still allow for pretty much the same conflict.
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MiBs and WiBs wouldn't, because their reason for existing is the tech level of the mechs. And when I say "the tech level of the mechs," I mean with respect to the appearance. There was no consideration given to the invasiveness of the procedure, or the psychological effects, or anything like that. The physiopharmaceutical augs were created specifically because they wanted something without the
non-standard appearance of mechs. And that was it concerning mechs, there was nothing else about mechs they brought up as wanting to get away from. What they created also had a nonstandard appearance, but it was considered acceptable because certain clothing (those suits with long sleeves they always appear in) could make them pass as normal. So MJ12 was fully willing to settle for, "He'll only look normal if he's wearing long sleeves and sunglasses," it was just that mechs couldn't pull it off.
I singled out this paragraph from the rest 'cause I have two other objections here. First off, we're trying to judge the setting logically, so just because something is not mentioned in DX's writing doesn't mean it shouldn't be considered. I'm referring to the reasons for developing other augmentation solutions than mechanical prosthetics, and matters of invasiveness, with regards to marketability and psychological impact, are
paramount. A producing company wants high potential market penetration, and a purchasing company wants high adoption potential among its security/combatant
employees. It doesn't matter whether you're MJ12/Versalife or Bob's Nightclub Security, it is vital that the product on offer is as readily acceptable as possible to subjects.
The other thing is that just because Adam can throw a coat and not be
immediately identified from a distance as a mech, doesn't mean that there is no benefit to developing the more discrete chem aug. Coats or no coats, it's still pretty clear that even in DX3 a mech would be a lot easier to spot than a chem MiB, even if not as easy to spot as Gunther or Anna.
Quote Posted by Melan
Frankly, if I had creative control over the DX franchise, there would be no continuity whatsoever except a broad thematic connection (urban decay+augmentation+government surveillance+conspiracies). Kind of like Final Fantasy, which has chocobos, magic crystals and inventors named Cid in common and that is that.
That could work. Another possibility would've been to have smaller scale cyberpunk stories in the original DX1 setting, almost like episodic content, though I imagine some would have a problem with the lack of all the huge global conspiracy stuff, and possibly not as effective to obtain a new playerbase.
chris the cynic on 10/6/2010 at 19:01
Quote Posted by Ostriig
But I'm still not giving you this one.
I would like to point out that by saying this to DDL you are arguing with a biochemist about what the word invasive means when at least half of the topic of the conversation is intimately bound up in biochemistry.
I'm not saying that you shouldn't make the argument, or that you should yield to his expertise, or anything like that. I just wanted to point that out.
That said, if I had two procedures I could give you, one of which required me to screw with your arm, the other of which required me to screw with every cell in your body, which would you consider more invasive? Would you rather have me messing with your shoulder, or the part of your brain where your childhood memories are stored. (Or the part of your brain that allows you to understand language? Or the part that governs your likes and dislikes? Or the part that separates you from someone who sits in one place and drools all day every day?)
What makes you think that MJ12, or the Illuminati before them (or whatever we're assuming came before them), were interested in marketing? They weren't exactly wanting for money. By the time they'd actually created a nano augmented agent those things I said about their financial situation (owned China, boss is a trillionarie, have the largest corporation in the world) were all true, presumably for a while.
They don't need the money that would come from selling it, so why share their augmentation technology? The only people we know of that they gave nano augmentation to were two agents at place they owned (whom they'd been watching since birth, one of whom they actually created, and whom they'd been attempting to control since, at least, they killed those agents original parents when one was six and the other seventeen) and the people running the organization.
When they created a new kind of augmentation, allowing them to create the MiBs, the only people we know of that they gave it to were their own agents.
On the topic of the MiBs, if we assume that they are attempting to market to someone, who would that be? If it's those being augmented, how appealing do you think, "psychological conditioning has resulted in a Loyalty Estimate of 9.66 on the Yitzhak Scale," will be?
"Sign up to be an MiB today. You'll be an estimated 78% more effective in combat than a normal operative without any form of augmentation.
"
Warning, side effects will definitely include becoming albino, glowing red eyes, and brainwashing."
I'm not sure that's the best thing for marketing. If you're talking about marketing to companies who are willing to brainwash their employees then I don't think they'd give a damn about how those employees feel about losing an arm and having it replaced with a machine for the good of the company.
-
Obviously there are several reasons to prefer nano augmentation to becoming an MiB. Especially if it weren't for that whole plague thing.
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But it
does make sense there's so much sheen in the context of the setting, this is the period right before it all went to shit.
Well it depends on where you're talking about. According to the "CIA Factbook 2050" in the game, Hong Kong has been thriving in the decades since it returned to Chinese control. In Deus Ex's world things never went to shit in Hong Kong, it's been steadily doing well since 1997. That thriving actually increases as it gets closer to Deus Ex, "the real GDP has peaked every year since 2041 with all forecasting models predicting that this trend will continue well into the next decade if not beyond."
So Hong Kong, as you see it in Deus Ex, is a city that has been economically thriving from when Human Revolution took place all the way until Deus Ex by which point it has had a decade of each year being measurably better than the last (followed by two years of we don't know what.) Now people are correct to point out that the way part of a city looks doesn't necessarily reflect how the whole city looks so that that is what Deus Ex says part of a city would look like after more than 50 years of economic prosperity shouldn't be seen as a sign that nothing looks more advanced than that.
What it should tell you is that you can't blame all changes on the economic collapse.
There've been no major economic problems in Hong Kong. (Or, if there were, they only happened in the two years prior to the game.) If you're willing to trust the Deus Ex continuity bible there haven't been any in all of China, which has been "Essentially untouched by world events" and "has emerged as a world leader, supplanting the United States and Europe as centers of education and industry."
-
For the US, Europe, and various parts of the rest of the world you are certainly right. The US isn't supposed to reach its tipping point until 2030, and Europe's problems are supposed to start with the US dragging them down with it. Before 2030 the worst we're supposed to be seeing is a massive AIDs epidemic.
So no big problems with saying, "Well the US and Europe haven't collapsed yet," because you're right, the story supports that.
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I only brought that up as a possible context for why mech augs might look more "spartan" in 2052 than in 2027, where companies might focus more exclusively on their product's functionality at the expense of aesthetics in an attempt to drop costs.
But, again, the people who have access to all the money they could want, the people who own the country the economic collapse didn't hit, couldn't make Adam like augs
in the one city that we know for sure wasn't suffering economically when they were concerned primarily with their aesthetics.
So, in response to not being able to make a mech augs that could be covered up with clothing, they created an entirely new type of augmentation.
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not that they should be somehow altogether easy to conceal.
First off, that was stated in the context of why they decided Adam should be able to wear a coat with sleeves. Second, look at the trailer, they conceal pretty nicely.
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The original game just doesn't support the "no coats" idea, and frankly I don't think the two concepts you linked to do much for it either.
The original game states that the MiBs were a success because their visual oddness could be concealed by clothing where that of mech's could not. I'm not sure what the game could do that would support it more than that.
That said, how many characters, (other than Anna, Gunther, and Jordan) do you remember going without sleeves? How many characters other than Anna and Gunther do you remember with legless pants?
I'd note Jordan's going sleeveless in particular. It's one thing to have augs uncovered in combat, once combat starts a non-standard look isn't much of a concern. A mech aug, a nano aug, or a physiopharmaceutical aug are all equally unsubtle when firing a plasma rifle. Also we could, probably without too much difficulty, come up with any number of reasons why Anna and Gunther type augs that could be covered the rest of the time would need to be uncovered in combat. So we could, if we really wanted to, come up with ways to ignore Anna and Gunther's dress.
Jordan is different. She's not in combat (or at least not expecting to be), it might be better for business if she could make her arms less visible, and she certainly doesn't like talking about them. (The conversation file describes her response to JC mentioning her augmentation like this:
The "augmentation" issue really hits a nerve. Jordan is pissed-off and sarcastic at this point.) So why is she showing it off if she doesn't have to?
Obviously that's not nearly as conclusive as the stuff about the MiBs.
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You're making an assumption here, in that the stigma carried by mechanical augmentation is the result of it being
immediately identifiable in
any conditions, regardless of extent or clothing.
Actually I'm not. I'm making the assumption the documents detailing why the MiBs were created were accurate. We don't have to assume that, but given we're talking about internal MJ12 stuff written by the guy who created the MiBs I don't think it's too out there of an assumption.
It has nothing to do with the stigma. They said they wanted agents without a non-standard appearance and I take that at face value. All I assume based on that is that they wanted agents without non-standard appearance.
I'm not assuming that MJ12 was so concerned about the stigma its agents would suffer if they were mechs that they decided to brainwash and albinize them instead thus cleverly avoiding the stigma.
My assumption about the stigma would be that it is related to the appearance, yes, but that that is hardly the only thing it is about and if someone were able to conceal their mechanical augs they would still be treated the same way by people who knew they were a mech, and if someone kept it hidden they'd have to be constantly worried about people finding out.
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That doesn't have to be the case - even if certain extents of mech augmentation could be rudimentarily concealed in the field, an agent would still have to face the associated stigma in their personal life. Having to be fully covered at all times to avoid identification as a mech would still allow for pretty much the same conflict.
Setting aside that I don't think MJ12 cared much about the people they were willing to brainwash, think about what you're saying in the case of the MiBs.
In their personal lives, if they have them, their friends and family would likely notice that their skin had changed color and their eyes had started glowing. If they were to go out on dates the people they were dating would probably notice that they albinos with glowing red eyes and funny voices. Their neighbors might pick up on that strange redness that they could see behind the sunglasses they wore all the time.
Being able to hide their oddness with sunglasses and dark clothing, a rudimentary form of concealment they use in the field, only goes so far.
The MiBs obviously aren't known by the public at the time of Deus Ex, and perhaps MJ12 assumed they can keep it that way forever (in which case marketing isn't a concern), but as soon as they were everything you just said about mechs would be equally true for them. (Hell, they can't even take off their sunglasses without people noticing the freakish glowing eyes. Someone who just had mech arms and a coat could at least look you in the eyes without being identified as not-a-normal-human.) Yet being able to be rudimentarily concealed in the field is considered to have resolved the matter.
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I singled out this paragraph from the rest 'cause I have two other objections here. First off, we're trying to judge the setting logically, so just because something is not mentioned in DX's writing doesn't mean it shouldn't be considered.
I agree, but when someone writes down why they did something, I think we should accept that that is why they did it. If, in Human Revolution, someone writes an internal email saying, "We created the doohicky because we wanted a something that had X without the Y of thing A and without the Z of thing B," I'm going to take it to mean just that.
What I am not going to say, "Clearly they created the doohicky because they wanted something that had X without the I, J and K of thing A." Because why they created it is in the game, in writing,
and that's not it.
They said why they created the MiBs. So as far as I'm concerned why they created them is settled. I understand that that isn't true for you, but unless you come up with something more compelling than "Because I said so," I'm not going to concede the point because when trying to figure out why someone did something it doesn't get much more clear the person who did it saying why he did it.
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I'm referring to the reasons for developing other augmentation solutions than mechanical prosthetics, and matters of invasiveness, with regards to marketability and psychological impact, are
paramount.
The MiBs were created with the intent of being brainwashed. Maybe it is just me, but marketability and psychological impact seem somewhat less large concerns when we take that into account. Likewise with invasiveness.
And since you seem to be playing fast and loose with the definition of invasive, I'm going to too. I think brainwashing is more invasive than limb replacement. And yes, if given the choice I'd rather loose the limb and keep my free will (insofar as I have it, I'd rather not get into a debate on free will right now.)
Marketability also doesn't really seem to come into play anyway. As far as we know MJ12 wasn't selling the MiBs, they were using them. If they were planning on selling them that would mean that the world, or at least some much larger than MJ12 subset of it, would know about their existence in which case the MiBs would likely be associated with a stigma just like the mechs. At that point the things you said about mechs who can cover up in the field would apply equally to MiBs. The moment someone say albino skin they'd assume the person was an MiB* and treat that person accordingly (based on Deus Ex and what we've heard of Human Revolution, accordingly = pretty damned badly when it comes to augmented individuals.)
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A producing company wants high potential market penetration, and a purchasing company wants high adoption potential among its security/combatant
employees. It doesn't matter whether you're MJ12/Versalife or Bob's Nightclub Security, it is vital that the product on offer is as readily acceptable as possible to subjects.
MJ12 is not a company, it is a (secret) multinational non-governmental organization that owns multiple countries including China as well as companies such as Versalife. While parts of it do indeed sell things it is incorrect to refer to it as a producing company. Market penetration cannot be assumed to be their end goal on everything they create.
It may be a purchaser of some things, but in terms of the augmentations they make them in house so they aren't a purchasing company. As for adoption by its employees, again: brainwashing. That's not something many people would sign up for.
Also, consider the diary of Adept 34501:
My name has been taken from me, a thing I need not anymore, and I have been christened Adept 34501.
...
In a way, I feel pity for him - an emotion that I know will prevent my advancement beyond the Third Rank - but it is pity I feel nonetheless.They've got people giving up their names and trying to give up their emotions, I think they're doing pretty well in the getting employees to do what they want department.
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The other thing is that just because Adam can throw a coat and not be
immediately identified from a distance as a mech, doesn't mean that there is no benefit to developing the more discrete chem aug. Coats or no coats, it's still pretty clear that even in DX3 a mech would be a lot easier to spot than a chem MiB, even if not as easy to spot as Gunther or Anna.
Is that clear? Adam's got his eyes, obviously, but what if you had a mech without the eyes? What shows after you've got them in a coat?
If you know about the MiBs then any individual MiB's entire face is an albino beacon with a red glow filtering through dark sunglasses. If you don't know about them then you've still got that red glow filtering through dark sunglasses. The mech aug's head is an unremarkable human head.
Other than your head, the only part of a person fully clothed in long sleeves that shows is their hands. So as near as I can tell if you had a mech aug that was Adam less his eyes, the only way to tell before the combat started (at which point he may indeed whip off his coat and become more noticeable) would be to look at his hands. If the eyes are unavoidable, there are sunglasses that could cover them up.
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* I think it is time to take a moment to remember the real victims of the MiBs. All of the natural albinos who were either mistaken for evil brainwashed goons of the conspiracy once the conspiracy nuts realized there were suddenly so many more albino people working for mysterious overlords, or mistaken for (non-conspiracy related) brainwashed superhuman goons once MJ12 started marketing the MiBs.
Ostriig on 10/6/2010 at 20:23
Okay, look, this is going past the point of constructive discussion. I appreciate the fact that you're dedicated to the conversation, but you've just laid down over 2500 words and points are all over the place and practically impossible to individually address in a timely manner, so let's try and concentrate the argument a bit. Also, please be careful 'cause you're addressing some points I did not make here and there, e.g.:
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And since you seem to be playing fast and loose with the definition of invasive, I'm going to too. I think brainwashing is more invasive than limb replacement. And yes, if given the choice I'd rather loose the limb and keep my free will (insofar as I have it, I'd rather not get into a debate on free will right now.)
This doesn't argue against anything I brought up at any point. I was comparing the process of mechanical augmentation to that of nanoaugmentation as potentially applied commercial products and illustrating that one is far more apparent to the subject and involves a more drastically perceivable change for them. And okay, I misused the term "invasive", replace with "drastic" or somesuch, you get the gist of the argument and the point still stands.
So let's get back to the base individual points, then:
1. Just because you can put a coat on Adam and it conceals his prosthetics doesn't mean that there is no use to develop more subtle augmentation technology. An MiB, as seen in DX1, is still more discrete than DX3's Adam as he's still, you know,
fleshy. Quite frankly, the entire concept of the MiB is a complete cheesefest - weird eyes need sunglasses, ok, but why exactly couldn't you put some sort of makeup on them to handle the skin tone?
2. The concept that you couldn't put a coat on Gunther or Anna isn't supported by what the original DX delivered in-game. What is supported is that even if you did put one over them (and neglecting their facial augs) they still would have a fairly high risk of detection at close quarters, whenever someone might catch a glimpse of an exposed wrist for example, or in pretty much any situation where wearing a full trenchcoat would be suspicious. This applies to Adam as well. Further, the concept of these odd, non-clothable prosthetics is very surprising given current day prosthetics technology.
All in all, you are convincing me of something, and that's that the writing for the original DX was not
quite as solid as I gave it credit for initially. ISA tried to put all these conspiracy theories and elements in there, men in black, Area 51, Illuminatti, etc. and maybe, just maybe, there's some room in there for consolidation and improvement? Don't get me wrong, Deus Ex
is my overall favourite gaming experience without a doubt, but that's not to say it's perfect and some of the inner workings of its narrative can be rather simple at times.
