Illuminatus on 9/6/2010 at 23:29

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If I recall correctly, Page was especially keen on successfully developing nano-augmentation because it would allow him to interface directly with the Aquinas Router and Universal Constructors (part of his God from the Machine plan, something mechs obviously couldn't do).

Anyway, what this all comes down to is that it is very difficult to create a consistent prequel to a game world as complex and well established as Deus Ex. Almost every major organization, character, or piece of technology has a detailed back-story in the original game; Human Revolution is obviously going to clash with a lot of that established canon (especially since so much of the original story is connected to events in the previous decades).

The ideal Deus Ex prequel would have to include significant past events mentioned in the first game (such as Page's rebellion against Everett, Daedalus's creation, Paul Denton's origins), but it's very unlikely Human Revolution is going to adhere that closely to a 10 year old game's plot. Rather than nitpicking at every inconsistency (and there will no doubt be many), this "prequel" should probably be treated as a separate gameworld somewhat influenced by the DX universe.

Ostriig on 9/6/2010 at 23:51

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Fair enough, I agree that they cut back from the initial design and personal impact of mech augs, I was also disappointed when they didn't take the gritty route to it (back when we expected to start out fully human) even though the sleeker one they're going for makes a lot more real-world sense. I do think it would've given a lot more weight to your choices regarding self modification if the trade-off was ending up looking like Gunther after all was said and done. However, the in-game representation of mechs does little to support the "no coat" idea, since you've got both Anna and the bartender in HK, for instance, whom you can totally throw coats over; in fact, there's also the one exchange when Anna reminds JC that they're supposed to do more than "just scare the NFS with their baggy coats", even though she's never portrayed with one. As for Gunther, bigger coat I suppose, though the point is more likely that they couldn't keep their augs concealed for long and under closer scrutiny.

Another point here is interpreting what Jacques-Belletete said when he said Jensen should be able "to go out for dinner" - did he mean that the tech should look reasonably... elegant, as in not like a gray golem to repulse or frighten others, or that the tech should be entirely unnoticeable. This distinction may be a lot more apparent in-game when we get our hands on it, as we can see if people easily take note of Jensen's augs or not. Also, others on this forum did suggest that a possible explanation for the aesthetic difference between Gunther's and Adam's augs could be attributed, once again, to economic conditions, though I'm in two minds about that.

But okay, I'm good to tentatively roll with that individual counterpoint in that they did cut back from the initial design of augs to a sleeker version, even if I don't feel that it necessarily does away with the use of MiBs. Give me a few more, though, any other notable breaks?


I had not connected those dots, thanks! However, in this case, I was answering to why MJ12 would want to develop such tech in the first place, even if it were not to offer any other advantages than easier concealment and installation. Obviously, they're end-goal would be to develop nanotech to the point it would be safe to install, in which case it would be a no-brainer to pick over mechanical prosthetics.

Ostriig on 10/6/2010 at 00:25

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Well, even with Simons' "bioelectrics-marred face" (btw, is that directly due to nanotech?) it would still be decidedly more marketable and preferable to having your limbs completely replaced if it weren't for the nanites' possible drop-dead (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSJ8tvdM-FM#t=0m32s) side-effect.

But you're kind of answering your own question there with the second part. :p

Ostriig on 10/6/2010 at 01:00

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Again, regardless of whether the mech looks like Gunther Hermann (as seen in-game in DX1) or Adam Jensen, the tech presents two major shortcomings:

1. It is a massively invasive procedure, can't stress this enough. I can't comment on the chem modding, but at least with nanotech, in an end-goal state of development where it is stable and safe to install, it is the clear choice and people would obviously be more willing to subject themselves to nanoagumentation than to mechanical modding. This is pretty much a given.

2. Mech prosthetics, even as sleek as they are presented on Adam, can clearly only be hidden as long as they are completely covered by reasonably thick clothing. In any situation where Adam, for example, can't wear thick, long sleeves and gloves, his arms become apparent from a mile away. Even with the lines visible on JC's hands, nanotech is incomparably more discrete. And considering the difference between Simons and JC / Paul, and that nanotech is still WIP at that point, we could suggest that telltale signs could even be further reduced.

So any way you look at it, there's still plenty of reason for wanting to replace mechanical augmentation regardless of whether it looks like in DX1 or 3.

chris the cynic on 10/6/2010 at 01:47

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Ok, so there's a bunch to respond to.

First, I don't buy monetary restrictions as being much of a problem for MJ12. These people owned China, they owned the largest corporation on earth, if you're willing to believe what the Devs told us outside the game MJ12's boss was a trillionaire. They spent 50 billion on JC.

We don't know how much they spent on the MiBs, but we do know that they considered them a success because, though they were albinos with glowing red eyes, they could pass as normal with the help of dark clothing and sunglasses.

If MJ12 wanted augmented agents that could pass as normal with the help of clothing, and such things already existed 25 years prior but were somewhat expensive, I don't think the cost would be a deterrent.

As for why they weren't supposed to be able to wear clothing over augs, we can come up with a lot of explanations. The original concept art (http://www.planetdeusex.com/images/image.asp?/dx1/files/art/dxart11.jpg) [1] (http://www.planetdeusex.com/images/image.asp?/dx1/files/art/dxart01.jpg) [2] seems to indicate exposed moving parts and not quite standard shape. Of course the important thing isn't why the couldn't, it is that the fact that they couldn't was important to the setting.

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The history of nano augmentation isn't the most clearly defined thing ever (it's an area with wiggle room for a prequel.) It started when MJ12 was still a part of the Illuminati and Bob Page was Morgan Everett's protege. Page wanted to use it as a weapon, as he eventually did to a certain extent with the Gray Death, but the project started with augmentation in mind. At that point it is extremely doubtful the driving force behind it was Page's planed apotheosis.

During this period when MJ12 and the Illuminati got along it was decided that one way to move forward in human augmentation was to use genetic information collected via vaccinations to locate people who might produce augmentable offspring, even act as matchmaker if necessary.

This project had a massive success and Paul was it. When they realized that fact they created a clone using the same womb (they implanted a cloned embryo while posing as fertility experts.) JC was that clone.

The history of nano augmenation gets pretty hazy from here on out, but remember that bit about "mortality studies" that had to happen in here somewhere.

By the time of Deus Ex Bob Page has obviously worked out his whole godhood plan, but they have yet to figure out how to successfully integrate augmentations into someone with a normal immune system*. DDL is correct that at least some of those working on the project were fed bullshit. Ford Schick was kidnapped and forced to work on it and he wasn't even told he was working on augmentations, he was just told to eliminate immune response to the Gray Death.

(We don't know exactly what others were told, the scientists in the MJ12 lab under UNATCO HQ, for example, talk about working on it, but they don't stop to say, "Of course you know, we're doing this because ...")

Page's planed apotheosis and the fact that we have no clear indication of why the Illuminati started the nano augmentation project (unlike why MJ12 started the MiB project which is clearly stated in writing) are two of the reasons why you don't see me making claims about HR invalidating the existence of JC and Paul.

For all we know the nano augmentation started when Lucius DeBeers had the idea for it in a drug induced trance**, and we haven't seen or heard anything about Human Revolution that would indicate that didn't happen.

Maybe nano augmentation would have occurred even if mechs were much better than as seen in Deus Ex.

MiBs and WiBs wouldn't, because their reason for existing is the tech level of the mechs. And when I say "the tech level of the mechs," I mean with respect to the appearance. There was no consideration given to the invasiveness of the procedure, or the psychological effects, or anything like that. The physiopharmaceutical augs were created specifically because they wanted something without the non-standard appearance of mechs. And that was it concerning mechs, there was nothing else about mechs they brought up as wanting to get away from. What they created also had a nonstandard appearance, but it was considered acceptable because certain clothing (those suits with long sleeves they always appear in) could make them pass as normal. So MJ12 was fully willing to settle for, "He'll only look normal if he's wearing long sleeves and sunglasses," it was just that mechs couldn't pull it off.

I think that is everything, I should be asleep right now. Talk to you all later.

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* The exception being Simons. Without sifting through the ingame text, conversations and images I can't tell you whether this is spelled out in the game, but I do know that a member of the PDX forums (walton simons, spelled with entirely lowercase letters) wrote to the developers to ask and found out that, yes, that stuff on his face is related to his augmentations.

Now, since I don't know of a citation in the game, we could assume it's bullshit. Or we could do the same because the source was Harvey Smith and a lot of people don't like him very much. I tend to accept what the developers say if it matches what the game seems to be strongly implying. It does that in this case so I figure we should accept it as canon. I realize that might be somewhat controversial.

**Not how I think it would have happened.