TheDorkProject on 4/10/2013 at 00:52
Anyone else find themselves in a similar boat to me?
If we flash back to 2002 or 2003 or whenever Deadly Shadows was coming out, particularly in the lead up to it... I was one of the most ravenous haters of any and all changes. I was a big console hater at that time, too. Particularly re: the original XBox. I was already very upset at Microsoft for diverting Halo 1 from being a PC/Mac game to an XBox exclusive. Back then, I thought a first person shooter just could not be played in any sort of reasonable fashion with a controller (though I had enjoyed Goldeneye.)
Then when Thief 3 and Deus Ex 2 were getting consolized, and we could all tell that the PC versions were ending up dumbed down and uglier as a result, I was furious. I'm an obsessive Thief fan. I have a custom printed TDP poster on the wall behind my computer (and thus in front of me) as we speak. I went as Garrett for Halloween years ago.
I absolutely adore the voice work of Stephen Russell and in many ways I feel that his voice is inseparable from the character of Garrett, and one of the most important pillars of a Thief game. I was crushed when I found out they weren't using him in Thief 4.
With all that said, though... I find myself now at a very different place. Perhaps it's a "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em" or just relaxing... giving in... I don't know what you'd call it. Maybe loosening up?
In the end, I played both Thief 3 and Deus Ex 2, and while I had huge issues with both as compared to their predecessors, I also managed to get enjoyment from both. Deadly Shadows more so than Invisible War. Thief 3 suffered from a bad case of consolitis, and I really disliked the purpley-blue fog and shadows everywhere, including menus, but in the end there were still some cool missions, I enjoyed the psuedo-free roam in the city... it had a fair amount going for it.
I also ended up loving Halo 1 on XBox, and that probably helped me chill out.
I still hate the impact that consoles sometimes have on PC games, but I guess at this point I just feel lucky that the Thief series is getting another game at all.
Let's face it: Looking Glass Studios was total lightning in a bottle. It was a group of people who came together at a time, and in a way, which probably cannot happen again. It was the right place, right time, right point in the history of video games and before the industry got quite as corporatized... etc, and I just don't think it can happen again. Much to my sorrow. Same goes for Deus Ex 1. Unfortunately, I just don't think that moment in gaming history characterized by System Shock 2, Thief 1 and 2, and Deus Ex 1 is going to be repeated. The best we can hope for is probably just halfway decent tributes and follow ups. Thief 3, in many ways, was that. Human Revolution and Invisible War, also.
You've got to meet these games half way. You've got to want to find something to enjoy. You have to make an effort. That doesn't mean tossing aside all of your standards and expectations. It doesn't mean letting go of being upset about Stephen Russell (I still am) - it just means lowering your sword, and giving it a chance. Go into it knowing it won't measure up, and that you'll never love it as much as Thief 1 and 2, but go into Thief 4 making an effort to enjoy it.
That's my plan, currently. To that end, I pre-ordered the Master Thief edition of Thief 4 via Steam today. I want a physical copy, but so far I see no evidence of one for PC. So I'll probably end up getting suckered into buying 2 copies. Perhaps I'll get one for my PS3 or something... I don't think I'll own a PS4 or XBone any time remotely soon. If anyone has heard anything about a physical PC copy, particularly a special edition with any sort of physical items, let me know!
This same attitude helped me enjoy the Lord of the Rings films a lot more than many of my more purist friends who were anticipating them back before they had come out. Unfortunately, it didn't work for me on The Hobbit Part 1 so well... that was a CGI-packed, frantic mess.
Anyway... I very rarely visit these forums anymore and I don't mean to retread old ground or seem argumentative. I'm not. I fully and completely understand and respect those who have clung tighter to their purism than I have to my own.
Just, speaking for myself, I'm glad I was able to find a way to still be excited (even if it's while having several misgivings) for the new Thief game coming out. I expect there to be constant moments as I play it that irk me, ranging from slight annoyances to real face palm situations. I just also expect there to be some cool stuff, too.
yxlplig on 4/10/2013 at 03:49
I think Thief 3 is an above average game, but a bad Thief game. The level design and freedom of movement are objectively inferior to the previous games--two elements that were critical components of it's predecessors. It has horrible technical problems. Even a modern computer takes about 10 seconds to load a map. The hovering bug is a pervasive annoyance throughout the whole game. The frobbing is too finicky. I could go on and on about all the annoyances, but that's not really the point I want to make. The reason that I still like the game is because the story elements are really strong, and it preserves the feel of the original games. Also I like the hub world, it adds a certain cohesiveness to your actions in missions when you leave and you have to perform follow up tasks in the city before going somewhere else. Basically I think Thief 3 nails about 50-60% of what made 1 and 2 good, and has some unique things of it's own to add on top of that.
With Thief 4, they just keep announcing horrible new game mechanics, while at the same time removing everything about the original trilogy's aesthetic that made it charming. That guard conversation inside the manor at the Eurogamer Expo demo was probably one of the most offputting things I've heard in a game recently. Thief 3 had technical and design flaws. Thief 4 has serious design flaws, and on top of that it's also like this weird monster devoid of personality that cut the skin off an old friend's face, and is wearing it as a mask. The situation is a little different.
TheDorkProject on 4/10/2013 at 05:00
Quote Posted by yxlplig
Thief 3 had technical and design flaws. Thief 4 has serious design flaws, and on top of that it's also like this weird monster devoid of personality that cut the skin off an old friend's face, and is wearing it as a mask. The situation is a little different.
Ha, well you made a lot of good points, and I understand completely what you're saying.
I may not have been paying as close of attention to Thief 4 stuff which has been coming out, as most others here do. I did watch a lot of that video, and I saw the conversation between guards you mentioned. I agree it was off putting.
I guess I'm just hoping that the full game has some redeeming qualities and still has something to offer. We'll see.
I've found some of the promo stuff to be pretty painful to listen to, like "every stitch of cloth allows me to steal things!" or whatever... just fairly stupid.
The real shame is, they could have made up for a lot of blunders in other areas by at least having Russell do the voice.
Shinrazero on 4/10/2013 at 08:02
Greetings! New discussion is interesting, I'd like to share my thoughts on couple points in your post.
Quote Posted by TheDorkProject
With all that said, though... I find myself now at a very different place. Perhaps it's a "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em" or just relaxing... giving in... I don't know what you'd call it. Maybe loosening up?
I'm really glad for you. Truly. I don't hold it against anyone for getting excited about this game or wanting to be excited about a new Thief game. Now I am not saying you are but for me personally, I won't settle for less than what has already been given. Like every other taffer on these boards, we got our stories, passion, and love for Thief. It is a tall order for EM to fill and I am of the opinion that they are not going to make it based on what has been revealed so far.
Quote:
I still hate the impact that consoles sometimes have on PC games, but I guess at this point I just feel lucky that the Thief series is getting another game at all.
I would rather have no Thief game than a mediocre one. That's just me. EM isn't doing me any favors either way.
Quote:
You've got to meet these games half way. You've got to want to find something to enjoy. You have to make an effort. That doesn't mean tossing aside all of your standards and expectations. It doesn't mean letting go of being upset about Stephen Russell (I still am) - it just means lowering your sword, and giving it a chance. Go into it knowing it won't measure up, and that you'll never love it as much as Thief 1 and 2, but go into Thief 4 making an effort to enjoy it.
I disagree, no game should be an effort to enjoy. Games give enjoyment. It is their prime directive. For me, Thief epitomizes the zenith of gaming experiences. It is the standard I have judged all games since playing TDS. I refuse to settle for anything less.
Quote:
This same attitude helped me enjoy the Lord of the Rings films a lot more than many of my more purist friends who were anticipating them back before they had come out. Unfortunately, it didn't work for me on The Hobbit Part 1 so well... that was a CGI-packed, frantic mess.
Man I love talking about Tolkien. My obsession with Thief is rivaled only by the one I possess for Tolkien. I get where you are coming from on this but I really enjoyed the first Hobbit film. I enjoyed it even though it had significant deviations, additions, canon bending, you name it. Even so, I was able to enjoy it because I felt it captured the important moments, even if it wasn't exactly like book.
Now before anyone says "But wait Shinrazero! Thief is also taking significant deviations and you get frothy about stuff!" let me elaborate. I feel that nuthai4f is altering and omitting core components. The surface stuff they've changed disappoints me greatly but the unforgivable stuff is why I am not thrilled with where this game is going. Yes, I know the subject is beaten to death but I don't care. Stephen Russell is a core component. After seeing Ian Mckellin portray Gandalf, would anyone be accepting of someone else playing Gandalf in The Hobbit? Maybe, but he'd have to be damn good. Crazy good. I find Romano forgettable. I think a lot of people don't think it is terribly important, I think SR is integral to the experience. That's just me.
Contextual movement just cannot be wrapped up in anything lovely in context of a Thief game. This is a pillar. This kind of thing permeates much of modern gaming and I hate it. I hate games being reduced to theme park rides where you are taken from one attraction to another. It is the antithesis of Thief gameplay. As a player I won't be free. Thief is about being able to experiment with minimal restriction. Why? It leads to emergent gameplay. I don't think I will be able to cook up a crazy idea to overcome an obstacle and that makes me really sad. Could NuThief pull it off? I don't see evidence that it can.
Stealth. It doesn't seem that there has been a lot of focus on stealth. The light gem seems like an afterthought. Much of the footage we've seen has been action oriented. Headshots and third person take downs. I feel this element is on the back burner with most of the attention going to the cool focus take downs and brawny XP gains.
Atmosphere. Playing TDS for the first time, I was amazed at the level of creativity. LGS nailed the environments, the charming dialogue, truly unique character factions, the City! All that stuff made for something I had never experienced. I wish I could describe it better but I'm sure you get my meaning. It sucks you in. I'm baffled as to why EM wouldn't even attempt to maintain some of the quirky charm that Thief had. Yet they are playing it safe and familiar but not to the previous games.
In summary, I feel nuthief is missing these essentials and that is why I am not optimistic. Too much that made Thief special seems absent and I hate thought of drudging through a game that is mostly mediocre and the only bright spot being the random nod to the old games. I could be proven wrong. Either way, the smugness will flow on these boards if the game is good or bad (can't wait :ebil:)
TheDorkProject on 4/10/2013 at 08:32
Quote Posted by Shinrazero
Stephen Russell is a core component. I find Romano forgettable. I think a lot of people don't think it is terribly important, I think SR is integral to the experience. That's just me.
Contextual movement just cannot be wrapped up in anything lovely in context of a Thief game. This is a pillar. This kind of thing permeates much of modern gaming and I hate it. I hate games being reduced to theme park rides where you are taken from one attraction to another. It is the antithesis of Thief gameplay. As a player I won't be free. Thief is about being able to experiment with minimal restriction. Why? It leads to emergent gameplay. I don't think I will be able to cook up a crazy idea to overcome an obstacle and that makes me really sad. Could NuThief pull it off? I don't see evidence that it can.
I think you had a lot of good comments and I respect your point of view on this.
I just want to pose a hypothetical. Say Thief 4 was never announced, and you were thrown into a cryogenic tube for 200 years. You wake up, and find yourself in a very different world. There are still books, movies, and games being made, but the sensibilities of the time have completely left you behind. You find out that a company is planning to make a new Thief game. There's a trend going on of making reboots of series from centuries before (your era) and Thief is one of the series getting this treatment.
I agree that Stephen Russell is integral, and yet 200 years in the future he is long deceased (sadly) and using him for the voice is not an option. Sensibilities about gameplay mechanics, pacing, atmosphere, cinematics, everything... have all changed dramatically from the original Thief games, and dramatically from what you're comfortable with and are fond of.
In this scenario, aren't you still curious to see what they made? To try it? Maybe you're the only surviving person from the era of the old Thief games and they're desperate for you to try it and tell them how it compares :) Ha, I don't know... I think I'm stretching this hypothetical too far.
The point is, if I were in that situation I would be incredibly curious to see what they made. And even though it would be hugely divergent from the originals, and rub me the wrong way in numerous ways, I'd be glad that they'd made the effort, I'd find it charming that they'd tried to resurrect an old series that was dear to me, and out of politeness if nothing else, I would seek things within it to enjoy. Perhaps putting my guard down out of politeness, I would find myself legitimately enjoying it after a time, because by deliberately trying not to focus on the bad things and thus hate it, I allowed my mind to actually experience it in a fair way.
EDIT: Btw, I saw you mention "TDS" a few times. Are you saying Deadly Shadows was your first Thief game or? Because if that's the case, the ironic thing is I felt (at that time, and still to this day to a degree) that TDS was a pretty big drop in atmosphere, quality, etc from the original two games.
Heck, for that matter, I had my issues with Metal Age. I know other people complain about supernatural elements in The Dark Project, but it is my favorite by far... by FAR. I love everything about TDP, and to me it blows way Metal Age, Thief Gold, Thief 3, etc... easily. Yet, as I said, I've been trying to find a better balance where I learn to enjoy each game on it's own terms.
Shinrazero on 4/10/2013 at 08:40
If Stephen Russell was not an option, I would totally be okay with a different VA, providing he performs well. The thing is, EM had the opportunity to use Stephen Russell but willingly chose not to. That's where my beef lies.
Briareos H on 4/10/2013 at 09:22
I don't agree with the "world has changed, be happy we have something" attitude. We didn't need a new Thief. Looking Glass Studios' works were characterized by strong player empowerment, pretty much the opposite of what Eidos Montreal are doing with Thief. If it doesn't play like Garrett, doesn't look like Garrett and doesn't sound like Garrett, why should we accept it as a game in the Thief series? Seeing it as a new "franchise" alleviates some of the concerns but even then, as a consolised modern title, it will have to be really damn good to beat Dishonored and other stealth games. Right now it just appears to be a (not very appealing visually) mess filled with agency-restricting mechanics and DRAMA.
TheDorkProject on 4/10/2013 at 09:29
Well, Thief 3 was sort of a disaster but still had some enjoyable things, I guess that's what I'm hoping for here. I agree that Thief 3 had more going for it in terms of maintaining a portion of the original LGS feel than Thief 4 does, though.... so perhaps my hopes are naive.
Let's hope that, at the very least, even if Thief 4 is god awful, it will inspire a bunch of people to purchase and play the originals out of curiosity. That would be awesome.
Briareos H on 4/10/2013 at 09:34
That I can agree with :)
Hamadriyad on 4/10/2013 at 09:40
Quote Posted by Shinrazero
Man I love talking about Tolkien. My obsession with Thief is rivaled only by the one I possess for Tolkien. I get where you are coming from on this but I really enjoyed the first Hobbit film. I enjoyed it even though it had significant deviations, additions, canon bending, you name it. Even so, I was able to enjoy it because I felt it captured the important moments, even if it wasn't exactly like book.
Hey, good to see another Tolkien fan! :cheeky: I agree. I enjoyed the first Hobbit very much. I am looking forward for the second part. (Smaug looks a bit weird though.)
