Vigil on 3/12/2006 at 13:32
Once you're finished patting yourself on the back for staying true to your artistic vision by vanity-publishing your novel, you could try some self-examination for a change.
Your "philosophy" about your art isn't one. It's the standard defensive brickwork used by every hopeful amateur to extend the walls of their comfort zone the moment they step outside it. That this is transparent to everybody but yourself indicates that you need to spend less time congratulating your noble creative conscience and a lot more time examining your own motives and acknowledging your own needs.
But why do that when you could dig up a pithy quote from a frequently published commercially successful writer with which to justify lying to yourself, though?
SubJeff on 3/12/2006 at 13:39
Come on now Sypha, people are being constructive here. Take the advice, it might help. If you really didn't give a crap you wouldn't have done any of this, and if we'd all come out fawing over the amazing artistic vision of Mr Champagne you'd be more than accepting of it.
STD stop being a prick.
SD on 3/12/2006 at 15:03
Quote Posted by Aerothorn
You respond to accusations of bigotry by dragging my mental disability into this? Some defense.
You started it by launching a completely unjustified attack on me.
You accused me of bigotry because I (a) suggested that paying $1000 dollars for this was a waste of money and completely typical of a guy who is so clueless he
has to ask advice on how to catch a fucking bus and (b) because I suggested a potential market for his book that might enable him to recoup some of the cash he just flushed down the toilet. Yeah, that's fair! :weird:
Like I say, your mental state is the only excuse you could have for being so utterly and completely in the wrong.
You picked on me because you wanted to wade into this car-crash of a thread and cause a ruckus with someone, but you didn't want to take on the likes of Vigil, OB and Scots (people who genuinely savaged Sypha itt) because you perceived me as an easier target.
@ Subjective Effect: nobody cares what you think and nobody ever has
David on 3/12/2006 at 15:10
Oh shut the hell up, the lot of you. This thread is hilarious enough without some random cock-slapping contest.
Briareos H on 3/12/2006 at 15:11
shut the fuck up
EDIT : damn beaten by david :(
Parker'sSire on 3/12/2006 at 18:02
Sorry to get all serious, and sorry for the long post, but...
Just re-read through this thread from the start.
It always seems that the "bad boys" of TTLG are the bad guys and the "nice boys" are the good guys. (no gender specificity intended, lovely women of TTLG)
But it's interesting to look at what really happens.....
Almost without exception, every person posting had congratulations and/or, sometimes, very constructive criticism for Sypha.
Even SD referred to Sypha as "lovably clueless". (I'd much rather be called "lovably clueless" than simply ignored... any day.)
And, let's face it, if we were discussing the most well written, well received novel of the decade, some people would still have complaints and be assholes. That's just how things are. You gotta look at the proportion of those.
It went screaming downhill from there. Not because people were trashing Sypha, but because of David's "random cock-slapping".
e.g. @Aerothorn
SD (and many people here) may be "lovably insensitive", but his marketing suggestion could make sense. (I just got the book, haven't read much). Not every reference to "gay" is intended as a slight. I have several gay friends and students who would not have been offended by the comment... would have just rolled their eyes at SD's, sometimes, poor choice of words and his later offensive-defense of the meaning behind them.
@Sypha
suggestions...
1) When creating, don't ever explain or TRY to explain, justify, or otherwise defend/respond to criticism with anything but acceptance. (Unless it could actually hurt you, your product, or is just someone being a true asshole). It doesn't work or, usually, help.
Of course your work isn't for everybody. But listening to and learning from alot of the criticism can help make it right for MORE people. Many comments ITT could help you learn to write really well.
Just simply say "Thank you for the comments and insight." :)
2) Don't ever, EVER use the word "art" in response to comments. It's the #1 copout and has no meaning whatsoever to anyone but you.
(And if you only wanted your work to mean something to yourself, you would prob. not publish it publicly.)
I'll catch flak for this but...
I have always believed that the most off-the-wall artist creating paintings of color splotches, rectangles, and pictures of people made out of square blocks should be able to draw an apple that looks like an apple or a tree that looks like a tree.
IMHO, style comes after the basics and, ITT, many people are commenting on the basics.
Same goes for music. I can appreciate, congratulate, and encourage all kinds of music and creative effort (as almost everyone, at least at first, did ITT). But if you want to discuss it technically, it can be a different story.
Can't tell you how may times something I've done has been called "shit". I just tried to learn how to make "not-shit".
3) Friends are invaluable, but not the kinds of editors you need. When you write your next piece (maybe a short story next), copyright it, bite down on a piece of leather, and, maybe, make it available here first.... not after it's published. (Unless you can get it to a real editor.)
Get the feedback first. Try to figure out which is valid, which you can't do anything about, and which you don't want to... and, most importantly and honestly, why.
Bad writing (remember, I haven't read it yet) isn't "art".
Anyone, like you, who can write a novel in readable English can always learn more about how to write well.
If you don't understand what someone is talking about, then you may not understand something about your audience that you need to know.
(Remember, you're not using "art" as an excuse anymore... right??)
4) Last thing. Many comments you've made seem, to me, to say that you wouldn't mind making this a viable commercial venture, despite the "art" references.
The readers count.... they are the customers. And writing, like most "art" is a skill first.
... IMO.
(geez, some of that sounded pretty fucking pompous...... oh well.)
Vigil on 3/12/2006 at 18:42
Well said.
Printer's Devil on 3/12/2006 at 18:52
Quote Posted by David
Oh shut the hell up, the lot of you. This thread is hilarious enough without some random cock-slapping contest.
Such a contest would both painful
and extremely funny to watch. Do you propose erect and flaccid divisional titles?
Anyhow, I recall a succinct summary concerning the art of writing, from a guest lecturer in University, years ago:
Successful writers fail more often than unsuccessful ones.Throwing the manuscript to the wolves here at TTLG might have given your work some real polish. Just look at the replies to your post--they contain a huge amount of feedback.
Sypha Nadon on 3/12/2006 at 18:53
Parker's Sire, I did thank people for the comments, in my third post in this thread, on the second page. I can appreciate your comments. Perhaps I'm just not very good at explaining myself? I don't think using the "art" example is a cop-out, and maybe that's a niave or over-idealistic viewpoint, but I don't care, it's what I believe. I created this thing, and other people have the option of experiencing it or not. I would never have self-published it if I felt it wasn't good (the main reason why I didn't try to publish it through traditional routes was because I wanted almost complete control of the content for at least one book I write, and self-publishing offered me that option). I think part of the problem is that sometimes when you just look at one aspect of a book without taking the whole into consideration, that one aspect might seem to be trivial. People are basing their opinions of the book on this one chapter, so the context isn't accurate. That's why I've never liked excerpts. But hey, if people here think it's a piece of shit, there's nothing I can do to change their minds. It doesn't personally hurt me, but I do feel paternal feelings towards the things I create. I mean, you slave at something for so long only to have it pissed on in the most trivial way by someone who could care less, sometimes I feel the need to defend it.
What I find very annoying about this place is how some people just seem unwilling to accept the fact that other people might enjoy or find validity in what I do. It's like they think the opinions of those people don't matter, but their negative criticisms do. For example, as I've noted, people have treated my musical works on this forum with nothing but utter contempt. Yet recently one of my SN albums was recommened on some Russian noise website. And sometimes I come across people's blogs and I notice they've listed one of my songs as what they're listening to... and these are total strangers who don't even know me on a personal level, who have nothing to gain from hyping my stuff up.
But there are just people on this forum who see me as nothing more then a laughingstock or an object of ridicule, who still see me as the pretentious gay nerd they classified me as when I first started posting here years ago, no matter how inaccurate that perception is. Everything I've ever done has been mocked by these people. So I'm not as skilled in social functions as some... it doesn't mean I'm a failure as a human being. I don't know what makes these people so negative... Maybe some of them are just frustrated they can't actualize their own dreams so they need to piss all over someone else's. These people will always see me as some talentless waste of space, no matter what I do, because their personal perception of me intrudes on their judgement. So who am I going to end up listening to? Established writers who have actually published stuff and who encourage me to follow my dream? Or overly negative people who haven't published jack shit? In the end, I think it's a good book, that meets my standards. And I think other people would enjoy it. Look, I'm not a fool. I know what the rules of writing are. I've read enough books in my time, took enough writing classes in college. There are basics I choose to follow and basics I choose to disregard. What some people choose to see as flaws in this excerpt I don't see in the same way. Again, it's all a matter of personal opinion and taste.
Ah, the thread was just supposed to be a happy announcement that my book was out but as usual it degenerated into personal attacks on my character. But it was expected, so I'm not too disappointed. If anything if vindicates why I don't spend as much time on here as I used to.
SD on 3/12/2006 at 19:08
Quote Posted by Sypha Nadon
But there are just people on this forum who... still see me as the pretentious gay nerd they classified me as when I first started posting here years ago, no matter how inaccurate that perception is.
Well, in fairness to those people, the first chapter of your book wouldn't do much to disabuse them of that notion.
Look, for what it's worth, I wasn't having a go at the quality of your writing (I thought it was rather good actually), I was just flabbergasted that you would pay a grand to get this published. And my suggestion that you publicise this book in the gay community was a genuine one without any malice intended. I have NFI what got you and Aerothorn so wound up, but Parker'sSire's post was pretty much spot on and I don't want to drag this thread back down again. Keep on truckin'.
