Specter on 9/7/2013 at 19:26
Quote Posted by operativex
Fair enough. I was focusing on the core elements of thief such as stealth infiltration and theft (which thief is the grand daddy of) which from what I saw of the E3 footage seems to be at the heart of this new game.
Right. And likewise, I was talking about the core elements of a dog.
operativex on 9/7/2013 at 20:43
Quote Posted by Brethren
Are you sure you've played the games? It's no wonder that you don't consider them to be masterpieces, you're not really paying attention.
-A light gem with 8 shades of visibility.
-Shadows with varying degrees of darkness, torches and other light sources that can be put out.
-Sound propagation - AI can hear a difference if you're running or walking, or if you're moving over stone or tile or gravel.
-Thieves tools - multiple lockpicks, arrows (water/moss/gas/fire), blackjack, flashbombs, scouting orbs, potions (speed/slowfall/invisiblity), etc etc etc.
Skyrim doesn't have any of this type of stuff. Its' simple you're either visible, or you're not, mostly just line of sight. You can reduce anything to a comment like "You crouch in dark corners and club people." Have you played Skyrim? You run around and complete quests.
It seemed like the easiest way to refer to it, I realize it's not really a light gem.
"Skyrim doesn't have any of this type of stuff." You sure about that?
-The detection indicator in Skyrim gradually opens/closes the more visible you are.
-Skyrim had varying degrees of darkness w/ dynamic light AND shadowing, can't remember if light sources could be "put out" but I know the lighting model was dynamic and allowed you to move light sources.
-Skyrim has this, NPCs can hear footsteps and other sounds.
Thieves tools: Lockpicks? Check (honestly now, having multiple lockpicks made 0 effect in T1/T2, it was really more of a shallow way of adding "depth"). In Skyrim, lock picks actually broke which required more skill than ANY Thief game. For non lethal attacks, Skyim does feature weapons that stun NPCs. No scouting orb, but Skyrim has a multitude of different potions you could make. T1/T2 had 3 :erg:
I will grant you T1/T2 has better stealth gameplay, but lets not forget the most import aspect of Thief -- thievery. In Skyrim you can steal ANYTHING: clothes, jewelry, horses, silverware, and on and on and on. You could break into just about ANY building. I would say having a "great" stealth system like Thief as opposed to a "decent" stealth system in Skyrim is not enough to surpass the "INCREDIBLE-MIND-BLOWING-PICKPOCKET-YOUR-VERY-F******-SHOES-OFF-OF-YOU" amount of loot in Skyrim as opposed to Thief's "meh" loot and useless economy.
Skyrim makes being a Thief lucrative, whereas T1/T2 made it into a fun half-time.
Azaran on 9/7/2013 at 20:58
I agree that Skyrim is a masterpiece with a great stealth system, but there's something about Thief that makes it unique. And to be honest it's really hard to put my finger on it, something about the ambiance, the overall feel of the game; maybe some other taffer can step in and explain it better.. There's nothing else like it. The Skyrim feel, even when I'm looting, is just not the same.
operativex on 9/7/2013 at 21:04
Quote Posted by Azaran
I agree that Skyrim is a masterpiece with a great stealth system, but there's something about Thief that makes it unique. And to be honest it's really hard to put my finger on it, something about the ambiance, the overall feel of the game; maybe some other taffer can step in and explain it better.. There's nothing else like it. The Skyrim feel, even when I'm looting, is just not the same.
I can accept that. Thief does have a certain special charm to it's universe and characters, but it is nowhere near better at delivering the feeling of being a Thief than Skyrim.
I remember in Oblivion spotting a nice fancy house in the main city and waiting until midnight, going into the sewer system and breaking into the basement then looting the entire place while the residents slept soundly. If that's not being a true Thief, I don't know what is.
Renault on 9/7/2013 at 21:29
For the record, I'm a big Skyrim fan, and have enjoyed playing as a stealthy rogue type. But I'm sorry, it doesn't even come close to the stealth (and thieving) in Thief.
I remember in both Oblivion and Skyrim, just breaking into random houses, stealing stuff, sometimes to get in favor with the thieves guild. Stealing plates and goblets, sometimes a weapon or two, maybe a gem of some kind. Fun for a while, but in the end, it was boring as hell. Stealing all this mundane, common stuff that you could get from just about any house in any area of the world. Dull, dull, dull.
I much prefer Thief's mission based system, where the main object you steal is unique. You're after Bafford's scepter, or the Horn of Quintus, or a secret Mechanist blueprint. Each individual mission gave you a great sense of accomplishment. And it wasn't just stealing unique items, it was also following someone to a destination, or trying to escape unnoticed, or blackmailing someone, framing someone, or a dozen other things that were a lot more interesting than stealing some silverware.
Some of Skyrim's Thieves Guild quests have some interesting thieving options, but the freeform, open world stealing opportunities are just not that interesting.
operativex on 9/7/2013 at 21:33
Quote Posted by Brethren
For the record, I'm a big Skyrim fan, and have enjoyed playing as a stealthy rogue type. But I'm sorry, it doesn't even come close to the stealth (and thieving) in Thief.
I remember in both Oblivion and Skyrim, just breaking into random houses, stealing stuff, sometimes to get in favor with the thieves guild. Stealing plates and goblets, sometimes a weapon or two, maybe a gem of some kind. Fun for a while, but in the end, it was boring as hell. Stealing all this mundane, common stuff that you could get from just about any house in any area of the world. Dull, dull, dull.
I much prefer Thief's mission based system, where the main object you steal is unique. You're after Bafford's scepter, or the Horn of Quintus, or a secret Mechanist blueprint. Each individual mission gave you a great sense of accomplishment. And it wasn't just stealing unique items, it was also following someone to a destination, or trying to escape unnoticed, or blackmailing someone, framing someone, or a dozen other things that were a lot more interesting than stealing some silverware.
Some of Skyrim's Thieves Guild quests have some interesting thieving options, but the freeform, open world stealing opportunities are just not that interesting.
Well that sounds more like a fault on your end for not picking good joints to hit for loot.
Specter on 9/7/2013 at 22:19
Quote Posted by operativex
I can accept that. Thief does have a certain special charm to it's universe and characters, but it is nowhere near better at delivering the feeling of being a Thief than Skyrim.
I remember in Oblivion spotting a nice fancy house in the main city and waiting until midnight, going into the sewer system and breaking into the basement then looting the entire place while the residents slept soundly. If that's not being a true Thief, I don't know what is.
Of course, you could have done it at any time of the day and no one would bat an eye unless they are sitting in your lap when you take an item. I really cant believe there is a discussion happening where Elder Scrolls games are being compared to Thief. Apples and Oranges to the extreme. Of course there are stealth elements to both games, but surely you can see games on a deeper level than that! In Elder Scrolls, your chances of being seen were based less on environment, and more on those skills you upgraded. It made no difference what surface you walked on. It made no difference if it was light or not. It only mattered that you were crouched and not standing in the line of sight, and/or too close to a NPC.
Azaran on 9/7/2013 at 22:25
Quote Posted by Specter
Of course, you could have done it at any time of the day and no one would bat an eye unless they are sitting in your lap when you take an item. I really cant believe there is a discussion happening where Elder Scrolls games are being compared to Thief. Apples and Oranges to the extreme. Of course there are stealth elements to both games, but surely you can see games on a deeper level than that! In Elder Scrolls, your chances of being seen were based less on environment, and more on those skills you upgraded. It made no difference what surface you walked on. It made no difference if it was light or not. It only mattered that you were crouched and not standing in the line of sight, and/or too close to a NPC.
Yeah that's the thing with Skyrim, it's based on skills. At the level I'm at I can clear out an entire house or shop with the owner standing right in front of me while I rob them, it gets boring.
Vivian on 9/7/2013 at 22:25
For the record, I thought skyrim was a horribly bland waste of time that primarily appealed to the reptilian part of my brain that likes it when numbers get bigger. I thought the reason it was bought up at all because everyone keeps banging this 'Thief is a free-form exploration game' drum and no, it isn't really. If that's what it was, then yeah, Skyrim was a hell of a Thief game. You could explore the hell out of skyrim. Explore and throw bottles at dragonflies until your arms drop off. In Thief you get dropped in a large, closed map with a list of jobs and told to get on with it. You might as well call XCOM an exploration game.
operativex on 9/7/2013 at 22:30
Quote Posted by Azaran
Yeah that's the thing with Skyrim, it's based on skills. At the level I'm at I can clear out an entire house or shop with the owner standing right in front of me while I rob them, it gets boring.
It is up to a certain point. There is a sweet-spot in terms of skill range where the game is challenging stealth-wise.
