Renault on 9/7/2013 at 15:03
Quote Posted by operativex
Sounds like you never played Skyrim before, best "Thief'" game ever made.
Hardly. Stealth is OK in Skyrim, but it's pretty much Thief lite, just like Dishonored. It doesn't compare to the sophistication found in the Thief games. The systems are all extremely simplified and dumbed down, and it's not meant to be focus of the game. The most glaring example is the binary light gem.
And Thief never intended to be an open world game. Like Viv said, it's not supposed to be freeform thieving - you've got a clear cut job to do.
operativex on 9/7/2013 at 15:20
Quote Posted by Brethren
Hardly. Stealth is OK in Skyrim, but it's pretty much Thief lite, just like Dishonored. It doesn't compare to the sophistication found in the Thief games. The systems are all extremely simplified and dumbed down, and it's not meant to be focus of the game. The most glaring example is the binary light gem.
And Thief never intended to be an open world game. Like Viv said, it's not supposed to be freeform thieving - you've got a clear cut job to do.
Sophistication? You crouch in dark corners of the map and club people... It's so easy cave men could do it -- and probably did.
TriangleTooth on 9/7/2013 at 15:43
Quote Posted by Brethren
The most glaring example is the binary light gem.
I wouldn't call it that - it's the "eyes above heads" thing, but a generic one for everyone. A lightgem tells you when you can be seen, it tells you if you have been seen.
I agree though, Skyrim is a game with stealth, not a stealth game. It's clearly not intended to be played as a pure sneaker.
Queue on 9/7/2013 at 15:57
Pong... Now there was a masterpiece.
Nuth on 9/7/2013 at 16:10
Quote Posted by Queue
Pong... Now there was a masterpiece.
First video game I ever played, I think. Oddly, I don't look back on that one with rose colored glasses.:cheeky:
Renault on 9/7/2013 at 16:11
Quote Posted by operativex
Sophistication? You crouch in dark corners of the map and club people... It's so easy cave men could do it -- and probably did.
Are you sure you've played the games? It's no wonder that you don't consider them to be masterpieces, you're not really paying attention.
-A light gem with 8 shades of visibility.
-Shadows with varying degrees of darkness, torches and other light sources that can be put out.
-Sound propagation - AI can hear a difference if you're running or walking, or if you're moving over stone or tile or gravel.
-Thieves tools - multiple lockpicks, arrows (water/moss/gas/fire), blackjack, flashbombs, scouting orbs, potions (speed/slowfall/invisiblity), etc etc etc.
Skyrim doesn't have any of this type of stuff. Its' simple you're either visible, or you're not, mostly just line of sight. You can reduce anything to a comment like "You crouch in dark corners and club people." Have you played Skyrim? You run around and complete quests.
Quote Posted by TriangleTooth
I wouldn't call it that - it's the "eyes above heads" thing, but a generic one for everyone. A lightgem tells you when you can be seen, it tells you if you have been seen.
It seemed like the easiest way to refer to it, I realize it's not really a light gem.
demagogue on 9/7/2013 at 16:49
Quote Posted by Nuth
I would never describe my experiences playing Thief over the past 15 years as "beating the games". I think you just have a different perspective than I do.
I think this is close to my perspective, although I wouldn't word it like this. I'd say the games that I like most, I play as a kind of practice or even ritual... Since I'm in Japan right now, it's easy for me to see the connection between the way I play games and the Japanese arts, where it's more about honing a practice than just "running through" it to beat it, and the value is being engaged in the practice itself, for its own sake, rather than consuming it for entertainment.
So in that respect, things like gameplay & GUI minimalism and immersion are important, and features that are 'gamey' tend to be counterproductive to my ends, and can even defeat the whole purpose. Mirror's Edge, Stalker, & Skyrim (for different reasons) also allow this kind of playing, for me at least.
All that said, I'm conscious that the way I play games is far from the mainstream way people play or even think about games, and runs against most of the gaming culture, and since I'm very democratic, I don't presume to think the culture should follow me just because I like the way I play, and I'm happier when people are being themselves... But if anyone actually asked me, I'd try to explain why I think the way I play has a depth to it one might not appreciate at first.
Nuth on 9/7/2013 at 17:31
Quote Posted by demagogue
I think this is close to my perspective, although I wouldn't word it like this. I'd say the games that I like most, I play as a kind of practice or even ritual... Since I'm in Japan right now, it's easy for me to see the connection between the way I play games and the Japanese arts, where it's more about honing a practice than just "running through" it to beat it, and the value is being engaged in the practice itself, for its own sake, rather than consuming it for entertainment.
So in that respect, things like gameplay & GUI minimalism and immersion are important, and features that are 'gamey' tend to be counterproductive to my ends, and can even defeat the whole purpose. Mirror's Edge, Stalker, & Skyrim (for different reasons) also allow this kind of playing, for me at least.
All that said, I'm conscious that the way I play games is far from the mainstream way people play or even think about games, and runs against most of the gaming culture, and since I'm very democratic, I don't presume to think the culture should follow me just because I like the way I play, and I'm happier when people are being themselves... But if anyone actually asked me, I'd try to explain why I think the way I play has a depth to it one might not appreciate at first.
I think we're coming from a similar place. The Thief games are the least gamey games I've ever played. I tend to regard finishing one almost as I regard finishing a well-loved novel.
Darkness_Falls on 9/7/2013 at 17:56
Quote Posted by operativex
Sounds like you never played Skyrim before, best "Thief'" game ever made. 100x more places to infiltrate, more loot, fully explorable, etc.
Actually, I have. And FO3, Crysis and Far Cry 2. And Dishonored and DXHR. And Uncharted 1, 2, 3. And AC 1, 3. And Morrowind, and Oblivion. But like I said, the rose-tinted glasses have altered my vision for many years. Please give me some time, as it may take a while before I can think and observe rationally again. I hear there's a bit of an adjustment period once the glasses are fully removed. *crossing my fingers that the old Thiefs will look properly archaic in both graphics and gameplay soon! And the mind-reading capabiliies of my character in Skyrim showing a 3 stage eye icon when I'm crouched will show me how stealth really should've been done in Thief!*. Glasses aside, I loved the all the loading screens in Skyrim. The moments where you can reflect on the great stealth mechanics after opening a door or entering a cave. Good stuff!
TriangleTooth on 9/7/2013 at 18:48
Again I'll let Skyrim off somewhat for that since the game isn't trying to be a pure stealth game hell stealth is just one feature and not a core mechanic at all. Also, the eye isn't 3 stage it's continuous - closed not seen/various stages of alertness as it opens/open.
Still, Skyrim's stealth cannot be considered remotely a standard for a stealth game. A standard to pass most definitely, but not for Thief.
