Chade on 11/7/2013 at 22:49
Quote Posted by operativex
Kinda. If more variation existed in a future Thief game, it would all be superficial. In the end, it's all useless crap that converts to coin.
But all the things I listed could potentially be used without being converted to coins.
- rare ingredients and mechanical parts = make your own equipment
- keys = ability to access new places
- old maps = useful information
- dusty tomes = learn about valuable treasures
- plans for large physical money transfers = opportunities to rob a bank
and so on ... we could add plans for mechanical items, actions which curry favor with your associates, actions which scare off crime bosses or the watch or nobles, plus anything to do with the plot.
There's a lot of things which could potentially be valuable for more then just money in a free-roaming thief game.
Pyrian on 11/7/2013 at 23:42
Quote Posted by Specter
I am not a zealot for liking and defending a game in a corner of the internet dedicated to that game.
...Doesn't that make you a zealot just for
being here, then? :cheeky:
operativex on 12/7/2013 at 00:16
Quote Posted by Specter
Wow. Thank you for proving my point. You are precisely right. A Ferrari is more than a simply a vehicle with four wheels and an engine. And so too is Thief more than a stealth system merged with the act of thieving. That is exactly my point.
You are breaking down what I say much further than what I am describing. I'm comparing core mechanics whereas you are going down to 1s and 0s on a cd-rom. This is exactly what Chade pointed out. My analogy stays within the realm of car performance, interior, exterior, etc -- typical categories that are often used for comparison.
Quote:
That, because in an open world game you can do more of it by volume, it somehow it blows Thief out of the water.I've already talked about how looting is better in Skyrim beyond just volume.
Quote:
Is it at all logical to compare theft in a game nearly fifteen years old, designed in a level-based format, and entirely different in game play style, to a RPG a couple years old, open ended, free roaming, and based on an entirely different premise?
I've heard many people on this forum talk about how Thief is the "greatest game ever made" and "better than any modern game." However, as soon as I make a comparison with something recent it's somehow unfair? You guys can't just pick and choose which games are allowed a comparison with Thief when it suits you.
And what of it? I could compare the fighting skills of Mike Tyson to a child and would be correct in saying "Mike Tyson is a better fighter." Is it fair to compare the two? It really depends on the two arguing parties. If both parties presuppose that Mike Tyson is clearly the better fighter then it's definitely unfair. However, none of the staunch supporters of Thief have made that concession. If you don't concede looting in Skyrim is better than Thief, then logically you consider this a fair comparison. You can't "have your cake and eat it too."
Quote:
This is the best part yet. Your
random assignation of numbers is
meaningless and devoid of reasoning.
I've given many examples of how one is better than the other. If you can't find them, that's no fault of mine. On the other hand, you haven't given one shred of reasoning.
Quote Posted by operativex
the loot potential in Skyrim is off the charts
Quote Posted by operativex
the opportunity to rob any house/castle/cave, etc in the entire Skyrim world
Quote Posted by operativex
The variety of loot is another major thing that Thief cannot even come close to since it lacks certain game mechanics. For example, since there is no crafting in Thief, you will never find metal ingots, soul gems, magic scrolls, rare ingredients for powerful potions, etc.
(an example of loot items that simply will never exist in Thief but are plentiful in Skyrim due to additional game mechanics)
Quote Posted by operativex
In Skyrim, you aren't just stealing gold coins dressed up as fancy loot -- these are things you are stealing that can be consumed, equipped, traded, smelted, crafted, etc. These added layers of use add value to loot that we will probably never see in Thief.
(loot in Skyrim is worth more, not just coin value but in usefulness)
Even Brethren and Chade, who disagrees with me, are proof that I have made clear my stance and that they are not "random" or "devoid of reasoning." If this were true, these users wouldn't be able to restate my stance in their own words. To make the statements you have is being totally disingenuous to the people here. It's fine if you disagree with me, but don't lie.
Quote Posted by Brethren
I think he's talking about the sheer number of opportunities, the big open world with so many things to steal from so many places. But how much of that is really worth stealing, or even interesting to steal? There's not much challenge in sneaking into a peasant's hut or a bandit's cave. I'll take quality over quantity any day.
Since I conceded that Thief has a better stealth mechanic than Skyrim, that obviously requires no further evidence from myself.
Quote Posted by Specter
I give Thief a 1,000 out of 10 based on Woot Value, and Skyrim a .033 out of 10 on Because I Can-ness.
Unless your "Woot Value" or "Because I Can-ness" has some sort of reasoning behind it that we can all follow, this is not a fair comparison. My scores were based on the many reasons I gave. Regardless of numbered scores though, anyone with common sense can see the loot potential is vastly superior to Thief, whereas Thief's best mechanic (stealth) is only slightly better than Skyrim's. When you compare both aspects, I believe Skyrim scores higher in regards to providing the experience of being a thief.
Quote Posted by Specter
And unless we played a very different Skyrim, isnt the vast majority of items available to steal or pickpocket nearly pointless? And money is so prevalent in the game that are you really benefiting by snatching 4 gold out of a random NPC's pocket?
Not at all. A nice chunk of loot can be: consumed, equipped, traded, smelted, crafted, used, infused with magic, and on and on. Loot in Skyrim goes beyond just coin value. As far as 4 gold coins go, as I've stated before:
Quote Posted by operativex
Of course though, once you have 50k gold coins, nothing seems valuable. This would be true though of Thief if it were a 100+ hour game (of persistent gameplay).
This is an inherent issue for any persistent game that lasts for hundreds of hours. Just because a few million dollars is meaningless to Bill Gates, that doesn't make thievery any less lucrative to an 18 year old street thief just beginning their adult life.
Azaran on 12/7/2013 at 00:23
Ultimately this debate is pointless. Games are subjective to a great extent, and different people will like different things. There's a reason why even after I played Skyrim (and was thoroughly blown away by it - I played nothing but Skyrim for almost 2 months), I still think the Thief series is better. Call it familiarity, having played them for 10 years, whatever it may be, there has yet to be a game that surpasses Thief for me.
Specter on 12/7/2013 at 03:08
I am not breaking anything down to 0's and 1's. In fact, I am arguing against breaking anything down at all. You have consistently ignored this fact. What's more, when I intentionally make an extreme comparison to illustrate why your argument is poor, you accuse me of creating a straw man, and ignore the point altogether. You have made twenty six posts in this thread. I just read them all again.
You opened this thread by stating that the new Thief game should be good because the "core mechanics" are present. You elaborate to say that the core mechanics are shadows, water arrows, rope arrows, "clubbing people", stealing, and pick pocketing. In your third post, you state the core mechanics to be stealth, infiltration, and theft. Your fourth post names Skyrim the best "thief" game, and your fifth explains that this is so because there is an visibility detector when crouched, you can alter light sources (which is false), NPCs can hear you (also false) you can pick pockets, and steal lots of things of varying importance.
The bottom line is that you want to compare Thief to Skyrim, but only in the simplest of terms. Your quote: "obviously there are more subtleties to Thief than I described earlier." Likewise, you state that stealing is not the main focus of Skyrim. No one disputes your claim that there are superficial similarities to the two games. What I am saying is that those similarities are too generic to hold water; that you cannot compare things on such a simple level and expect it to form a valid argument of any real significance. I tried to illustrate this with metaphor. Lots of them. All of them seemed to pass over your head to the point that in your last post, you actually tried to claim that comparing Tyson to a child would be a logical argument if both parties agree to it. Then you bemoan that few here support your claims. Again false. No one disputes that in Skyrim you can steal anything that isn't nailed down. The issue we dispute is whether that makes it a superior game to Thief. You think it does. We think not. We think not because we do not play Thief just for the sake of stealing something. Further, despite the superficial claims otherwise, the world of Thief, and story of Thief are not about theft. We who love Thief love the lore. We love the story. We love the characters. We love the locations. And more. To judge Thief only by how many things one steals, or by how many things you can buy with the money you earn in missions, is to miss the point. Perhaps you love stealing in games, and care for nothing more. That is your right. By the same right that you come here to make your proclamation, we in turn refute it. Staunchly.
More over, you seem to think that the volume of items that can be stolen in Skyrim is a deciding factor in what makes a better 'thief-y' game. You may think so, but few others will agree. You listed a good many things that one may steal. And true enough, they may be stolen. But why bother? Most of the things can be looted for free, or have so little value that without trying, you accumulate far more than you could ever need. Theft in Skyrim plays such a minor role in the game, I genuinely find it surprising that you chose it as a point of comparison to anything.
You highlighted things you liked about a game. This does not mean you have explained your scoring system. Those numbers are totally devoid of meaning. What is a 10? What is a 0? Is it a reflection only of the volume of things one can steal? Are points earned for other things? Are they taken away for any reason? Can the score be used to relate Thief and Skyrim to other games? Would we be any the wiser if you adjusted your scores up by one, or down by one? Hardly.
In your 21st post, you state: "But unlike movies or books, when you break down a video game, the first things described are the mechanics -- not the plot and characters. Our medium is one of interactivity and player agency, not a written narrative". This is extraordinarily false. Many games are widely successful only because of story. Similarly, other games are successful because of their game play styles. That said, games can be ruined by poor story telling, or poor game play. It is the finished product that is judged. And likewise, when I say that Thief and Skyrim are incomparable, it is because they are entirely different products, with entirely different purposes, that happen to share a handful of game play mechanics. Can you make a comparison using only those few things? You sure can. Is it a comparison that makes any sense? Not any more than arguing about the fighting skills of Tyson vs a child.
Specter on 12/7/2013 at 03:08
Quote Posted by Pyrian
...Doesn't that make you a zealot just for
being here, then? :cheeky:
As one who has drank the Koolaid, I am not sure I can judge! :D
SeriousCallersOnly on 12/7/2013 at 05:47
Quote Posted by webe123
Let me ask the OP a question....what exatly do you think XP for headshots adds to a thief game that is SUPPOSED to be about stealth? This is thief...not hitman! So I do not see the reason at ALL behind adding this stupid feature to a game of stealth!
To please "console kiddies" is about the only reason I can think of. And that reason is stupid within itself.
Even in hitman there is no place for rpg 'elements', much less quicktime events. Witness my boycott of hitman 5.
Rpg elements on a pure player skill game (yes, puzzles
are skill)? Pure decline.
BTW, this is obviously a troll thread and i suggest everyone to add the OP to their ignore list or to see similar troll bait for monts before and after the release of thiaf.
edit: shit, this board doesn't hide ignored user threads.
jay pettitt on 12/7/2013 at 06:27
PacMan is by far the better stealth game.
Vae on 12/7/2013 at 07:00
No, Ms. Pac-Man is...:grr:
It's been kinda fun watching everyone waste their time with this lost soul...He has no intention of discovering what is true, so keep that in mind when you play with him.
henke on 12/7/2013 at 08:14
I don't know guys, stealth in Skyrim does have it's charms.
[video=youtube;rt5aUdijAN8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rt5aUdijAN8[/video]
Can't do that in Thief! :D