Renault on 11/7/2013 at 21:41
Quote Posted by Chade
So operativex, when you say that thievery is better in Skyrim, do you simply mean the act of choosing which loot to go after? Is there more to it then that?
I think he's talking about the sheer number of opportunities, the big open world with so many things to steal from so many places. But how much of that is really worth stealing, or even interesting to steal? There's not much challenge in sneaking into a peasant's hut or a bandit's cave. I'll take quality over quantity any day.
Edit: damn, can't keep up with your guys quick replies.
Chade on 11/7/2013 at 21:44
Operativex, I am skeptical that those three items are all you mean when you talk about thievery. After all, could we just cram more varied pieces of loot into a thief mission and make it a better game? Surely, as Brethren said, it's not the amount of loot as such, but the number of different targets to choose from.
What effect does stealing have on Skyrim's economy?
operativex on 11/7/2013 at 21:50
Quote Posted by Brethren
I think he's talking about the sheer number of opportunities, the big open world with so many things to steal from so many places. But how much of that is really worth stealing, or even interesting to steal? There's not much challenge in sneaking into a peasant's hut or a bandit's cave. I'll take quality over quantity any day.
Edit: damn, can't keep up with your guys quick replies.
I would say this is true towards the end of the game. But when you escape execution and your only possessions are shackles and a loincloth, the initial loot from robberies are very lucrative. Of course though, once you have 50k gold coins, nothing seems valuable. This would be true though of Thief if it were a 100+ hour game (of persistent gameplay).
operativex on 11/7/2013 at 21:59
Quote Posted by Chade
Operativex, I am skeptical that those three items are all you mean when you talk about thievery. After all, could we just cram more varied pieces of loot into a thief mission and make it a better game? Surely, as Brethren said, it's not the amount of loot as such, but the number of different targets to choose from.
Even if you crammed a Thief level with loot, it still wouldn't compare to the entire world of Skyrim. The variety of loot is another major thing that Thief cannot even come close to since it lacks certain game mechanics. For example, since there is no crafting in Thief, you will never find metal ingots, soul gems, magic scrolls, rare ingredients for powerful potions, etc.
Quote:
What effect does stealing have on Skyrim's economy?
You get richer? Economy is one of the most important aspects of Skyrim since it's primarily a dungeon looting game. Skill upgrades, new gear, raw materials for crafting, buy a horse or even castle, etc. There's a lot you can do with money in Skyrim.
Briareos H on 11/7/2013 at 22:25
Quote Posted by operativex
For me, it essentially boils down to shadow creeping, stealing loot, and clubbing people.
That's because you're short-sighted (with a hint of trying to be edgy). But please do keep people going with your flimsy comparisons
Inline Image:
http://anodal.org/down.gifChade on 11/7/2013 at 22:28
Quote Posted by objectivex
The variety of loot is another major thing that Thief cannot even come close to ... metal ingots, soul gems, magic scrolls, rare ingredients for powerful potions, etc. ... Skill upgrades, new gear, raw materials for crafting, buy a horse or even castle, etc. There's a lot you can do with money in Skyrim.
Ok, so you're saying that thieving is a more meaningful activity in Skyrim because of all the different things you can do with the proceeds, while in thief it's just what Garrett does. That sounds pretty reasonable to me.
That said, I don't think it's impossible to imagine that sort of thing in some future thief game. We know that Garrett makes his own equipment, so if you were to do a proper free-roaming city, there would be lots of scope for finding and "acquiring" rare ingredients, mechanical parts, keys, old maps and dusty tomes, plans for large physical money transfers, etc, which could then be used towards your next big heist.
operativex on 11/7/2013 at 22:34
Quote Posted by Briareos H
That's because you're short-sighted (with a hint of trying to be edgy). But please do keep people going with your flimsy comparisons
Inline Image:
http://anodal.org/down.gifFeel free to offer us your 140 character description or attack any of my arguments. Otherwise, you are just spewing out troll bait in the face of defeat.
operativex on 11/7/2013 at 22:40
Quote Posted by Chade
Ok, so you're saying that thieving is a more meaningful activity in Skyrim because of all the different things you can do with the proceeds, while in thief it's just what Garrett does. That sounds pretty reasonable to me.
That said, I don't think it's impossible to imagine that sort of thing in some future thief game.
We know that Garrett makes his own equipment, so if you were to do a proper free-roaming city, there would be lots of scope for finding and "acquiring" rare ingredients, mechanical parts, keys, old maps and dusty tomes, plans for large physical money transfers, etc, which could then be used towards your next big heist.Kinda. If more variation existed in a future Thief game, it would all be superficial. In the end, it's all useless crap that converts to coin. In Skyrim, you aren't just stealing gold coins dressed up as fancy loot -- these are
things you are stealing that can be consumed, equipped, traded, smelted, crafted, etc. These added layers of use add value to loot that we will probably never see in Thief. This is the main reason I never cared for loot in Thief or Dishonored. Can anyone honestly say I am wrong in this?
Azaran on 11/7/2013 at 22:44
Thief is much more purpose driven than Skyrim. In the latter you have a million things you can do, and you can go on forever in side quests. Thief is much more focused. At this point I completed all the main Skyrim quests, and the game's getting kinda boring. I've managed to accumulate 500,000 gold, but it's pretty useless for most things since I can steal anything I want easily. Thief is less scattered; you can redo a mission over again, use a different approach, etc.
Specter on 11/7/2013 at 22:45
Quote Posted by operativex
I don't see how any of these analogies are apt to what I am saying. They seem more like straw-men to my argument more than anything. A more fitting analogy would be: would a Ferrari owner accept a 1985 pickup truck
if the pickup could accelerate to 0-60 in 1 second even if the exterior/interior were not as attractive? That would really depend on why someone wants a Ferrari. For the speed or social statement? With regards to Skyrim, I am willing to overlook the weaker stealth mechanic for the opportunity to rob any house/castle/cave, etc in the entire Skyrim world.
Wow. Thank you for proving my point. You are precisely right. A Ferrari is more than a simply a vehicle with four wheels and an engine. And so too is Thief more than a stealth system merged with the act of thieving. That is exactly my point.
You can compare nearly anything when you take it down to fundamental elements. That is what I am saying. If the only way you can compare two things is to do so at its most fundamental level, then those things are not similar. You are correct to say that stealth and theivery are more important to Thief than to Skyrim. You then state how small a component theft and stealth is to Skyrim. Again, proving my point. Finally, you want to now focus only on theft. That, because in an open world game you can do more of it by volume, it somehow it blows Thief out of the water. Is it at all logical to compare theft in a game nearly fifteen years old, designed in a level-based format, and entirely different in game play style, to a RPG a couple years old, open ended, free roaming, and based on an entirely different premise?
Quote Posted by operativex
One simply needs to aggregate the score of both mechanics to see why Skyrim destroys Thief: when it comes to stealth I would give Thief (from 1-10, 10 being the perfect stealth game) a 9 and Skyrim a 7. When it comes to thievery (the amount of loot in the game to steal, how important it is to the games' economy, the variety of loot, etc) Thief gets a 2 out of 10 whereas Skyrim gets a solid 10.
This is the best part yet. Your random assignation of numbers is meaningless and devoid of reasoning. I give Thief a 1,000 out of 10 based on Woot Value, and Skyrim a .033 out of 10 on Because I Can-ness. And unless we played a very different Skyrim, isnt the vast majority of items available to steal or pickpocket nearly pointless? And money is so prevalent in the game that are you hardly benefiting by snatching 4 gold out of a random NPC's pocket. Give me a break.
