SubJeff on 2/3/2006 at 11:44
Quote Posted by Phydeaux
This was an assumption I made... Perhaps you missed this point the previous dozen times or so I made it.
Perhaps I glossed over it as it is neither here nor there. It's clearly some crap you made up (as you have admitted) that no one else cares about - though it seems you have some OMG SO WRONG rage over film representations. Again, no one cares.
Quote Posted by Phydeaux
But do you disagree that "functional art" can apply to a balisong or automatic? Or do you insist like Naartje and others that their only "function" is to stab people? This isn't a dig or an argument, this is an actual question I'm asking you.
The only butterfly knife/balisong I've encountered was interesting in design but cheaply made. I'm sure you can get some very, very finely crafted examples of them that can be used for a variety of things other than as weapons. Bladed tools are amongst the most rudimentary and essential man made instuments of course.
Quote:
The knife? Or the criminal?
Both. It's an additive or synergistic relationship.
Quote:
Back to my
original point in this thread, the knife-banning laws neither prevent muggers from using banned knives to mug people
Yes they do. If an item is illegal in a country it will be harder to obtain. Simple fact. If it is illegal to carry then shifty characters who do carry them with intent will be done by the police if they are stopped and searched. Next you'll be telling me the difference in UK and US gun laws has nothing to do with the differing rates of gun crime.
Vigil on 2/3/2006 at 11:52
So why has this particularly simple point not been satisfactorily addressed?
The primary intent of knife laws is not to keep knives out of the hands of criminals intent on muggery and assault with a deadly weapon, since that would be (as has been pointed out ad nauseum) pretty naive and futile. The point of them is to give the police the grounds to accost or arrest a suspicious individual for carrying that knife in suspicious circumstances that suggest criminal intent. Without having to wait for them to actually commit a criminal act with the knife, such as inserting it into another human being. Risk management.
Because the definition of "suspicious circumstances" is necessarily vague, the law cannot really use that as a criterion; instead, it makes it flat-out illegal to carry the kind of knives that are satisfying or convenient tools for the would-be thug. It's not like you're going to be arrested for carrying your beautiful collector's edition plastic-tag-cutting balisong around with you on the bus to work, unless you're enough of a moron to flourish it because you're bored. But if you happen to be lurking in a subway station at 1am in a manner a patrolling police officer deems suspicious, you can hardly blame them for wanting an excuse to fuck with you.
Edit: Subeff beat me somewhat.
Phydeaux on 2/3/2006 at 14:01
Quote Posted by Subjective Effect
Both. It's an additive or synergistic relationship.
I still cannot agree with you on that. If an irresponsable driver is more dangerous in a 2 ton SUV than he is in a Mini, by your logic, the driver and the SUV is an additive or synergistic relationship and we should ban larger cars because they're more dangerous.
Quote:
Yes they do. If an item is illegal in a country it will be harder to obtain. Simple fact. If it is illegal to carry then shifty characters who do carry them with intent will be done by the police if they are stopped and searched. Next you'll be telling me the difference in UK and US gun laws has nothing to do with the differing rates of gun crime.
And yet, somebody tried to mug thefonz with a flick knife.
The laws are ineffective. I simply cannot believe that somewhere in London, dozens of criminals are sitting at home thinking...
"Man, I really need some money. I'd love to go mug somebody, but these laws make it so difficult to get a proper flick knife with which I can threaten somebody. Maybe I'll just stay home and do crosswords instead, and later I'll phone my gran. Oooooo, those legislators really foiled me this time."
Quote Posted by Vigil
The primary intent of knife laws is not to keep knives out of the hands of criminals intent on muggery and assault with a deadly weapon, since that would be (as has been pointed out ad nauseum) pretty naive and futile. The point of them is to give the police the grounds to accost or arrest a suspicious individual for carrying that knife in suspicious circumstances that suggest criminal intent. Without having to wait for them to actually commit a criminal act with the knife, such as inserting it into another human being. Risk management.
In theory, yes. In reality, maybe. It still sounds like there's no shortage of crime in Britain (knife related or otherwise). My concern is with the people who unwillingly get caught up (my afore mentioned British knife enthusiasts). It's quite clear to me there's a lot of people who aren't concerned, and are willing to forego the choice of carrying certain knives since they never had any inclination to in the first place.
Paz on 2/3/2006 at 14:09
Quote Posted by Phydeaux
It still sounds like there's no shortage of crime in Britain (knife related or otherwise).
You haven't exactly covered yourself in glory as an expert in British criminal law, to be honest.
Phydeaux on 2/3/2006 at 14:17
You're the one who said crime is pretty kerrrazy. But you are right about the baseball bat thing (I already said as much), that was California (honestly, I think I'd rather live in the UK than California).
Paz on 2/3/2006 at 14:24
Quote Posted by Phydeaux
You're the one who said crime is pretty kerrrazy.
You haven't exactly covered yourself in glory as an expert in British sarcasm, to be honest.
SubJeff on 2/3/2006 at 16:15
Quote:
If an irresponsable driver Is more dangerous in a 2 ton SUV than he is in a Mini,
Clearly the truth...
Quote:
by your logic, the driver and the SUV is an additive or synergistic relationship and we should ban larger cars because they're more dangerous.
But it's a risk - benefit - practical use calculation. In the UK more people are killed each year in car accidents than by gun shot, yet guns are illegal and cars are not. Can you really not understand why? It's already been explained to you that some knives can be legally carried dependant on the type and situation. There is no practical need for carrying a butterfly knife over another type that would be legal.
Quote:
And yet, somebody tried to mug thefonz with a flick knife.
Are you trying to be stupid? We have been over this - a. we DO NOT KNOW IF IT WAS A FLICK KNIFE AS HE NEVER SAW IT AND ONLY THOUGHT HE HEARD ONE. I doubt it was. b. sample size of one. Come on. How old are you?
Quote:
The laws are ineffective.
Stats on British buttefly/flick knife crime please.
Quote:
I simply cannot believe that somewhere in London, dozens of criminals are sitting at home thinking...
"blah blah blah"
No, but difficulty in getting good mugging tools means they either have to do it unarmed, use something less effective, or something as effective but larger, more visible and more likely to be seen by the police and/or the victim earlier thus allowing for arrest or earlier evasive action.
Quote:
My concern is with the people who unwillingly get caught up (my afore mentioned British knife enthusiasts). It's quite clear to me there's a lot of people who aren't concerned, and are willing to forego the choice of carrying certain knives since they never had any inclination to in the first place.
Yes, I understand this. It's just a consequence of the law - sometimes you have to grow up and accept that life isn't always peachy and that for the greater good you just have to do things you may not be over the moon about. But in all honesty - is the burning need to carry a knife THAT compulsive that you are prepared to moan against a law that is supposed to protect you? If so, I suggest you rethink your priorities. I'd actually understand you more if it
were a self defense issue. At least that way you could argue that you felt defenseless against the blade weilding hordes. I still wouldn't agree with you mind.
Agent Monkeysee on 2/3/2006 at 16:45
Quote Posted by Subjective Effect
Yes they do. If an item is illegal in a country it will be harder to obtain. Simple fact. If it is illegal to carry then shifty characters who do carry them with intent will be done by the police if they are stopped and searched. Next you'll be telling me the difference in UK and US gun laws has nothing to do with the differing rates of gun crime.
Heh what? Knives aren't illegal in the UK.
SubJeff on 2/3/2006 at 17:09
Yes they are. I cut my spring onions with LAZER EYEZ.
I mean butterfly, flick, switch knives and so on. Of course. They are illegal to sell and you cannot carry them around if you own them already (which is legal).
Chimpy Chompy on 2/3/2006 at 18:09
Quote Posted by Phydeaux
3" of sharpened steel is 3" of sharpened steel, regardless if it's a pearing knife, Swiss Army knife, or flick knife, or even an open pair of scissors or a screwdriver, and that all are equally dangerous.
Bollocks.
