Scots Taffer on 1/3/2006 at 22:42
Quote Posted by MrDuck
This reminds me of an amusing story down at my city where a mugger tried to rob a man outside a restaurant, if memory serves, and the guy turned out to be a hitman for some petty druglord, so he killed the mugger.
ONLY IN MEJICO
jay pettitt on 1/3/2006 at 23:31
Quote Posted by Havvoc
Autoknives and other knives that can be flipped open within a switch shouldn't be legal anyway. The only people who need those are law enforcement, firemen, paramedics, military, etc. The common man has no need for an instantly deploying knife. Other knives are fine. Mine's a locking knife, so it's perfect for cutting boxes and such. I had to do that not ten minutes ago, and the little plastic tie things. If I hadn't had the knife on me, I wouldn't have been able to do that. Such knives are very useful in certain situations, whereas automatic knives are useful only in emergency situations, hence, the common man has no need for them and should not be allowed to possess them (without a permit, obviously). Catch my drift yet?
Umm, what the hell is a policeman going to do with an autoknife? Also, Stanley knife ban now omg!?!
No, I don't get your point; small lie, yes I do - but for the purposes of this discussion I completely dissagree with your interpretation of the law because...
1) You can carry a small folding pocket knife.
2) You can carry pretty much anything that isn't blatently an offensive weapon with the proviso that you've got a legitimate reason for doing so.
Yes, I do think the categorising of knives thing is twaddle. I can't for the life of me see why a small folding/locking knife shouldn't be regarded for all intent and purpse as a small folding knife rather than a fixed blade; and I'm not so sure why a small fixed bladed knife should be considered differently to a small folding knife anyway.
But the general gist is, in Britainland you can wander around town with a chainsaw without attracting more than a cursory glance. Plastic ties pose no significant threat. Yet we also have a police force who are enpowered to act on knife crime without having to faff around with whiney 'Go away Policies, it's my god given right to carry a weapon' people (excepting the Jewish, who can do that).
Yeah, I think knife laws would benefit from a bit more clarity and simplification if ever anyone has a spare week or two to do it. Otherwise I think they strike a pretty good balance. I wander around with a god knows what arsenal of dangerous pointy things and have never felt the need to worry about it. Yet I appreciate that the Police have powers to do policing and stuff if they need them.
Also, you'd be suprised what you can defeat a plastic tie or cardboard box with if you put your mind to it.
Havvoc on 2/3/2006 at 03:07
Quote Posted by Naartjie
William Wallace fought against the English, not the British, because Britain didn't exist in the 14th century. And even if it had, Wallace would, as a Scot,
have been British as well. You are also not British, Scottish, Irish, German or Cherokee: seems to me like you don't know the first thing about those other cultures you list as your 'heritage'. You're American, just be proud of that. :)
Don't be so damn picky. England and Britain is the same to Americans. Plus, Wallace was English only by the fact that England owned Scotland, thus he was politically English. He was Scottish by blood.
Would you rather me say that I'm American and that I hate all other countries? No, I doubt that. I'm proud of being a descendant from all those lines, so I'm going to proclaim it all I wish. No, I'm not British, Scottish, Irish, German or Cherokee directly, but I have all their blood. Don't be jealous just because you're British and nothing else. :p (j/k)
Like I said, I don't like to argue, so you can both argue with a brick wall now. I'm out of this one. :cheeky:
Shug on 2/3/2006 at 04:35
Righto then "Phydeaux", you LEAVE ME NO CHOICE. It seems to me that every time your points are rebutted you come out with "but you said that not me".
Quote Posted by Phydeaux
I flip my butterfly knife at home, or sometimes at work when it's slow, not whilst walking down the street. Don't act like you don't have any fidgety habbits.
OHhhh dear. OHHHHH DEAR. Let's go back a little on this one.
Quote Posted by Phydeaux
That's why I carry a balisong, and this one in particular. Plus, it's fun and it gives me something for my hands to do when I'm bored.
You told us that's why you carry a dangerous weapon after describing said knife in loving detail - "because it's useful". That was directly in response to me asking why you need a knife on the street. Paraphrased answer: you don't need to carry your knife around, you just like to fiddle with knives and have them on you JUST IN CASE someone throws a cardboard box your way asking you to open it for them. If you need to cut plastic ties on the street, or whatever, you don't need a full blooded blade.
Quote Posted by Phydeaux
And whether it's the grocers or wherever, the point of a pocket knife is that it's onobtrusive on one's person and easy to carry. Might need it, might not. But it doesn't get in the way if you have it. But aparently you think I shouldn't carry one, because I might stab half a dozen people on the way there and back. Why is it your place to deny somebody that choice? If you don't want to carry a pocket knife, don't.
AS WE CONTINUE ON, IT BECOMES EVEN MORE CLEAR THAT UTLITY POCKET KNIVES ARE ACTUALLY LEGAL IN BRITAIN. It's just the "slightly oversized and rather dangerous" knives through to "fuck that's deadly" that are banned from being carried around on the street. I imagine if you weren't American and/or obsessed with your knife collection you'd find that to be quite reasonable, really. People that want to carry around something with utility - PERFECTLY FINE. People that want to carry around three knives including a large-bladed, dangerous weapon - not fine.
Quote Posted by Phydeaux
Since when was this a 2nd Amendment/Self Defense debate? Oh yeah, when SOMEBODY ELSE brought it up. Or maybe it was my alter-ego, the one in Naartje's hallucination, so forgive him instead.
I assume by "someone else" you actually mean this quote by your own august personage:
Quote Posted by Phydeaux
It amazes me how willing some people are to give up their rights for the illusion of safety.
What right are they giving up if not the RIGHT TO BEAR WEAPONS? Remember, we already established proper tools are perfectly fine given that a) the blade is of a reasonable size and b) you need it for a work-related purpose.
Quote Posted by Phydeaux
Something of which I'm sure you're well practiced in.
Sorry, couldn't resist that last one.:cheeky:
LOL I SEE WHAT U DID THERE
You tried to turn my own joke straight back at me without doing anything with it... how witty. May as well have typed back "No YOU'RE GAY LOL".
Now you did have one particulary reasonable point that I will address because it was useful. That legislating against the carrying of knives publically won't stop criminals. That's a fair enough call - but banning guns on the street won't stop criminals from having guns either, and we can all see what a great decision it is for everyone to arm up (hi USA shooting deaths!) just to make sure those CRIMINALS aren't the only ones packing heat.
That's a slightly unfair comparison though, so we'll go back to the knives. Let's imagine for a moment that you're allowed a knife on the street. A mugger pulls a knife on you - you have 3 options. Leg it, give him what he wants, pull a knife. You said earlier in this thread that "of COURSE it's safer to have a knife". How so? Pull a knife and it's a knife fight, which interestingly enough, you said is a bad idea (also earlier in this thread). So that doesn't really compute. You certainly wouldn't pull a knife in a gun fight, so I suggest to you that the only time a knife would make things safer is if someone holds you up with knuckledusters. Even then you may end up stabbing them so that's not doing you any good in a legal sense. Basically, I submit to you that carrying a knife does NOT make you safer anywhere, but particularly not any safer in the UK.
The rest of your arguments basically boil down to stuff like "But I want to carry my knives in public :(" hence I find them rather useless.
Phydeaux on 2/3/2006 at 07:24
I think it's time to "agree to disagree", even though it sounds like a cop-out.
For some reason, some people still can't comprehend the fact that 3" of sharpened steel is 3" of sharpened steel, regardless if it's a pearing knife, Swiss Army knife, or flick knife, or even an open pair of scissors or a screwdriver, and that all are equally dangerous. Nor can you seem to understand 3" of sharpened steel is only dangerous in the hands of a criminal or mentally unstable person.
There's some social and cultural differences that neither of our sides can seem to mollify. You live in a society where people think a suit-wearing, father of three accountant is secretely and uncontrollably a stab-happy knife wielding maniac if he so much as touches a switchblade. I live in a state in a country where it's perfectly normal to see a regular guy with a handgun openely displayed on his hip, and even more normal to spot a person who's carrying a concealed handgun (easy if you know what to look for), and nobody gets their panties in a twist.
SubJeff on 2/3/2006 at 08:08
Now you're just being an idiot. Don't make stupid extraopolations - you're just letting us know how ridiculous you can be. You've ignored most of what you've been told and are just reverting to your repititious 2 pronged insult to sense and logic. Have a holiday, think about it.
Phydeaux on 2/3/2006 at 08:30
I haven't ignored anything, I've argued against it and dismissed it because it's completely illogical. You're so freaking scared of a specific type of knife because it makes a distinctive sound, or looks flashy when opened, as though it makes it any more dangerous. This ain't movies here. I could put on a karate costume with a black belt, but that doesn't make me a martial arts expert. A butterfly or flick knife doesn't impart to me any magical ability to reign vigilante vengeance upon evildoers, and it doesn't compell me to wantonly stab innocent bystanders. Yet you insist that only somebody with criminal intent would carry such a knife (despite the fact that I legally carry such knives, and have no history violent actions and have no wish for any in the future).
And you claim I'm an insult to logic?:rolleyes:
Nicker on 2/3/2006 at 09:05
Can we ditch the GD GB history lessons and rhetorical knife fights please? I think most of us are here to share information on how to be better muggers. Let's try to stay on topic.
SubJeff on 2/3/2006 at 09:14
Phydeaux
You really are talking crap now aren't you? At least have some more substantial straws to clutch at - something that is somehow grounded in something I've said, just so it doesn't make you look like a total buffoon.
No one has said that the sound or "flashy" look of a knife has anything to do with... well, anything.
No one has said that "only somebody with criminal intent would carry such a knife ". much less insisted on it.
Are you reading the same thread as the rest of us? Or are you really that much of a clown? I don't think you even know what logic is, and you certainly lack any. Blinded by yourself and your love of knives. :rolleyes: I'll even admit for you (and wait to see what rubbish you can extract from this) that I admire the art of knife making and many of the wonderful examples of the functional art that results from it.
Phydeaux on 2/3/2006 at 09:57
Quote Posted by Subjective Effect
No one has said that the sound or "flashy" look of a knife has anything to do with... well, anything.
This was an assumption I made. These knives are used in Hollywood to make the bad guy seem more menacing or evil, which is probably one thing that attracts criminals to them (and also likely, ordinary peoples' fears of them makes them more attractive to criminals as well). I'm forced to make this assumtion, because the flashyness or the sound means
fuck all to any dangerousness of the knife. Perhaps you missed this point the previous dozen times or so I made it.
Quote:
No one has said that "only somebody with criminal intent would carry such a knife ". much less
insisted on it.
Quote Posted by Naartje
3) WHAT IS NOT ACCEPTABLE to most people and as it turns out, the law (which I wasn't entirely aware of myself) is to carry things like flick knives, butterfly knives, or anything over 3", which could have no conceivable use outside of your kitchen or work studio or wherever you actually *need* them, other than stabbing someone.
If such a knife is only useful for stabbing people, then only a person with intent of stabbing someone would carry one. You, Naartje, and Slug have made countless baseless attacks on my character implying (directly or indirectly) that I am I knife wielding maniac based purely on the type of knives that I (LEGALLY) carry.
Quote:
I'll even admit for you (and wait to see what rubbish you can extract from this) that I admire the art of knife making and many of the wonderful examples of the functional art that results from it.
But do you disagree that "functional art" can apply to a balisong or automatic? Or do you insist like Naartje and others that their only "function" is to stab people? This isn't a dig or an argument, this is an actual question I'm asking you.
I still don't get why you people can't understand this simple point: A butterfly or a flick knife in
my hands isn't dangerous.
Any knife in a
criminal's hands is dangerous. So what's dangerous? The knife? Or the criminal? Using my SUV example: A 2 ton truck isn't dangrous with a responsible driver behind the wheel. A 2 ton truck
is dangerous with an
irresponsible driver behind the wheel. So what's dangerous? The truck, or the irresponsible driver?.
Back to my
original point in this thread, the knife-banning laws neither prevent muggers from using banned knives to mug people, let alone prevent muggers from using
any potential weapon (including many every day items that aren't banned) to mug people. This doesn't just apply to the UK, either, they're just more extreme than most others.
