Mugging 101 - TTLG Forums

SubJeff on 1/3/2006 at 15:55

I can open a butterfly knife in less than a second with one hand and do it in such a way so you will not see that I have a blade because it is concealed by my body. And if you really have one then you will know how to as well .I only practiced with a friend's years ago (in another country) and I'm confident I can still do it now, so for someone who owns one and carries it everywhere...

I do think that legalising them would increase their use - simply because they would be avaliable. And by use I mean threats for robbery and as you know some of these will end up with the blade being used. And we don't know that thefonz encountered a knife at all - by his own admission he never saw it.

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Are you refering to the 3 stitchs(sic) and permanent nerve damage on my index finger because of a locking knife that failed and foldied on me?

Err, did you say locking knife? Did you say "failed"? Think about it carefully next time.

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Or are you talking with the same fictional character Naartje seems to be talking to?

When you say "Just don't come crying to me next time somebody mugs you with a flick knife" whilst stating that the illegality of them won't keep them out of criminal's hands anyway I assume that you mean we'd be crying because we had no knife for defense. What else do you mean by this statement otherwise?

Shug on 1/3/2006 at 15:59

Quote Posted by Phydeaux

Bullets run faster than you can. But giving him your money/phone/whatever probably is a better idea.

Thanks for that concession, chief.

All quote-for-quote STRONTSTYLEE aside, here's what you seem to be missing. It's only the people that are knife-crazy that are wailing about these laws. About the best you can come up with is "well knives are useful", and my personal favourite "well it gives my hands something to do" - well bloody hell, that's a great reason to walk the streets with a sharp blade. Why would you need the "utility" of a knife while going to the grocers?

The self-defense issue that always seems to come up is Brit/Au "if you're being mugged get the hell out of there or give them your shit, don't escalate it by pulling a weapon" vs USA "GOD DAMMIT HOME OWNER HAS TO BE HIS OWN LAW ENFORCEMENT UNIT".

All this objecting about how a knife can be peacefully carried around is really neither here nor there. There's no call for it. I'll forgive you for the distinctly American "INFRINGING ON OUR RIGHTS WE NEED OUR WEAPONS IN CASE THE GOVERNMENT RISES UP", but honestly, all your UK knife buddies can just play with their tools indoors.

Phydeaux on 1/3/2006 at 16:08

Quote Posted by Subjective Effect

Err, did you say locking knife? Did you say "failed"? Think about it carefully next time.

The knife in question was a CRKT Red Bear (or Dog, I forget). This was before the LAWKs system came out; that's a secondary lock. The knife is a linerlock, and when I put backward pressure on the blade, the liner slipped, the knife unlocked itself, and folded on my finger. Yes, the locking knife failed. A slipjoint probably would have been safer, since I know better to put backward pressure on the blade with one of those (since that's how they close anyway). A well made folding knife with a better lock would have been much safer, and my balisong is the safest knife short of a fixed blade.

There's only so much you can do with a slipjoint. I rarely use the blade(s) on my SAK because of this (more for the screwdrivers, bottle opener, tweezers, etc). And I know many Brits that feel the same.

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Despite the number of times (+1) that I state the contrary?

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What else do you mean by this statement otherwise?

I mean that I'm getting tired of lobbying to people who don't understand/care on behalf of people that aparently don't visit TTLG.

Phydeaux on 1/3/2006 at 16:26

Quote Posted by Shug

All quote-for-quote STRONTSTYLEE aside, here's what you seem to be missing. It's only the people that are knife-crazy that are wailing about these laws. About the best you can come up with is "well knives are useful", and my personal favourite "well it gives my hands something to do" - well bloody hell, that's a great reason to walk the streets with a sharp blade. Why would you need the "utility" of a knife while going to the grocers?

I flip my butterfly knife at home, or sometimes at work when it's slow, not whilst walking down the street. Don't act like you don't have any fidgety habbits.

And whether it's the grocers or wherever, the point of a pocket knife is that it's onobtrusive on one's person and easy to carry. Might need it, might not. But it doesn't get in the way if you have it. But aparently you think I shouldn't carry one, because I might stab half a dozen people on the way there and back. Why is it your place to deny somebody that choice? If you don't want to carry a pocket knife, don't.

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The self-defense issue that always seems to come up is Brit/Au "if you're being mugged get the hell out of there or give them your shit, don't escalate it by pulling a weapon" vs USA "GOD DAMMIT HOME OWNER HAS TO BE HIS OWN LAW ENFORCEMENT UNIT".

Are you speaking to me, or the figment of Naartje's imagination?

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All this objecting about how a knife can be peacefully carried around is really neither here nor there. There's no call for it.

Actually, that's the whole fucking crux of what I'm saying.

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I'll forgive you for the distinctly American "INFRINGING ON OUR RIGHTS WE NEED OUR WEAPONS IN CASE THE GOVERNMENT RISES UP",

Since when was this a 2nd Amendment/Self Defense debate? Oh yeah, when SOMEBODY ELSE brought it up. Or maybe it was my alter-ego, the one in Naartje's hallucination, so forgive him instead.

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but honestly, all your UK knife buddies can just play with their tools indoors.

Something of which I'm sure you're well practiced in.

Sorry, couldn't resist that last one.:cheeky:

jay pettitt on 1/3/2006 at 16:33

Automatic and gravity knives are illegal here - not because they are pointier or stabbier or flickier - but because they were associated particularly with violent crime during the 1950s. Policing violent nutters became easier when their knives could be readily confiscamated. Even though it is technically possible to use an automatic or gravity knife for utilitarian purposes, generally speaking people in Blighty Land would much rather have a cup of tea or use some kind of utility knife.

Here's a run down of our lunatic UK laws for you - only without the knife nut hysteria.

All knives in UK land are legal in private.
If you already own (ie from before their inclusion in the offensive weapons act) an automatic, garvity or concealed knife you can keep it in your home if you really want. It is not legal to import, buy or sell the afore mentioned things - so says the offensive weapons act.

(Also, and quite seperately, we tend to look down on premeditated stabbings. If you keep a knife to hand in case you are burgled and you were, and you did - that could constitute a premeditated stabbing. If, on the other hand, you are burgled and happen to have a knife to hand, well that's a different thing. Obviously it's much easier to demonstrate that the knife just happened to be in my kitchen draw if it's a kitchen knife.)

Folding pocket knives with a blade less than 3 inches in length can be carried anywhere by anyone for whatever reason.

Concealed (by way of non detectable materials or being made to be hidden or disguised), automatic and gravity knives are illegal in public places. Full stop - again by way of the offensive weapons act. (The offensive weapons act also covers other things made for use as, or carried with the intent of being used as a weapon)

All other knives, regardless of length or pointyness, are legal in private, but can only be carried in public places with good reason (according to the Criminal Justice Act). Carrying a knife in case you feel the need to stab someone doesn't count as a good reason, carrying a knife for lawful activity like work, or fishing is ok. The Criminal Justice Act also covers double posting.

Agent Monkeysee on 1/3/2006 at 16:45

Quote Posted by Gingerbread Man

First off, Mace is illegal for civilians to own / use in most sensible countries, as it's a brand of tear gas. In the USA, tear gas is sort of state-by-state in terms of regulation and legality. I think it's still regulated enough in general that minors and convicted felons aren't allowed to own it.

I'm sure they exist but I'm not aware of any states where mace is legal. Pepper spray is legal almost anywhere though.

Phydeaux on 1/3/2006 at 16:50

I didn't realize mace and pepper spray were 2 different things. Mace seems to be some pretty dangerous shit.

SubJeff on 1/3/2006 at 17:11

And yet 3 knifes on a person is somehow moreso.

Naartjie on 1/3/2006 at 18:40

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See, now you're just being a pedantic dick and arguing semantics.

I NEVER spoke about Brits being able to carry a knife with the intent of self defense. YOU (and some other people) infered that I was talking about using a knife to defend oneself. The only mention I made about this subject was in response to somebody else, where I said that a knife is a pretty bad idea. The only other mentions I made of defending oneself was regarding non-lethal options like pepper spray or a taser.

The only times I mentioned "rights" were in regards to a person being able own and carry a knife, without being restricted to certain types. I might not have specified "for utility use", but I certainly never said anything about "for self defense". Yet you implied that I was here.

I (as well as Jennie&Tim) called you out on this, yet you're clinging on to your position (whatever it is, all I can figure out is that you're being an argumentitive prick) based on semantics.

lol...you lose an argument and so you claim I'm "arguing semantics" :D

I invite you to calm the fuck down, while I shall ignore you for the next 6 months or so. After which I might start respecting what you say again.

TheGreatGodPan on 1/3/2006 at 18:52

Quote Posted by Naartjie

...has just stumbled across another pet hate of mine, namely saying 'England' when you mean 'Britain', because England legislated itself out of existence 300 years ago.

Well shoot, I had been under the impression that Northern Ireland, and to a lesser extent Scotland, and to an even lesser extent Wales, and possibly to an even lesser extent Cornwall were governed slightly different from England proper. I had thought that they weren't nearly as autonomous as different states in the U.S but sometimes were affected by different laws/policies.

Quote Posted by d0om

I don't think its supposed to affect the hardended criminal, more to lower the rates of knife / gang violence / people being stabbed in clubs by paranoid highs by discouraging the carrying of knives.

I think that would fall under the category of use of knives in crime, as I'm certain stabbing people in clubs is against the law even across the pond. So if the laws were effective, we should still expect to see a drop in the relevant stats (unless violent crime in general increases and knife crime to a lesser degree, in which case I don't think we can necessarily draw any conclusions).