Slasher on 18/3/2019 at 05:45
The video was bad because it would be like if on September 11, 2001 I posted a video about how free speech is cool but oh American imperialism is bad and rampant capitalism is bad. Salient points though they may be, it's not the time or the place. It's particularly insidious in this case because it perpetuates the very real talking points that, while it sucks these people were killed, we shouldn't forget the real enemy, which is basically these people anyway and maybe it was for the best lol.
Quote:
But just now we stand with the Muslims. Not because we agree with their view, which is often the most authoritarian and unforgiving crap, but because we are decent and mourn with them that there are those in our midst who carry out violence in disagreement of free speech.
It hasn't even been a week and we're already amplifying the same positive feedback loops that confirm the prejudices of mass killers. Who says the victims had authoritarian or unforgiving views? How many more posts until we get to "well they kinda deserved it?"
Inline Image:
https://i.imgur.com/gtEdhel.pngPigLick on 18/3/2019 at 05:54
You know, "its not the time or place" is exactly what US politicians have said regarding gun laws whenever a mass shooting takes place and the general populace cry for gun reform.
Slasher on 18/3/2019 at 06:01
Just because NZ's pols realize trying the same thing over and over again and expecting different results is the definition of Far Cry 3 and ours don't doesn't make them inherently better than us.
Tocky on 18/3/2019 at 06:01
You may not recall the things said about the US on 911. I do. They were that bad and worse. Much worse in fact. If you don't believe me then go pull up the statements said on this very forum.
I hate the assholes who kill for or against religion. I won't change my views, which are correct BTW, for any incident. Maybe you will amplify your own feedback loop but I'm who I will always be. Nothing I said encourages killing. I'm against it. So much so that when I joined the service I joined as a medic. I won't lie and say the Muslim religion is tolerant though. No religion is. They all seek to control and most at some point are willing to kill to do it. Nobody deserves to die, even those who would kill for religion, whether it be Christian or Muslim, over a stupid idea in the first place.
Slasher on 18/3/2019 at 06:08
The idea is to not paint with such broad strokes, but obviously that's not getting anywhere.
Tocky on 18/3/2019 at 06:16
Individuals are individuals but that idea is against the fundamental aspects of religion. We all must believe the same thing according to religion.
icemann on 18/3/2019 at 09:15
Earlier I said this was one where it was radical Christianity at work was as they (the shooter) quoted the bible.
When a Muslim quotes the quran on committing terroism we call them a radical Muslim. So I'm just calling a spade a spade. If its one way for one then its the same for the other.
Dia on 18/3/2019 at 12:55
@Icemann::thumb::thumb::thumb::thumb:
heywood on 18/3/2019 at 12:56
I'm with Slasher. Almost every time some atrocity happens, immediately there are people trying to use the opportunity to advance their agenda or point a finger at their chosen bugaboo.
A better thing to do is be patient until we find out who Brenton Tarrant really is, whether he was mentally ill, where he was radicalized, whether he is part of a network or movement, etc. Then we can have a more realistic discussion of motives and prevention.
Purgator on 18/3/2019 at 18:08
I was addressing the 'Free Speech' issue.
If the mods feel it necessary to take that video down, by all means.
Hitchens wasn't a 'White Supremacist', he had strong views on organised religion. He was entitled to have those views. If he were alive today, I firmly believe he would not be able to set foot in any University without protest. What has changed?
I don't share a lot of Hitchens' views, but I would defend his right to say them. Opposing views can be uncomfortable, offensive, insensitive even, when they run contrary to your own personal/group ethos. That's the point of free speech. Free speech does not mean freedom of consequence though?
Who decides what those consequences are? When does that 'Free Speech' become 'Hate Speech'? Who do you elect to be the arbiters of that speech? Who will sit on a board and decide when you have stepped over the bounds? The people you would least want, in any case.
Freedom of speech/expression should be paramount in any society. Those who have such freedom should cherish it. Let those who have something to say speak freely, uncomfortable as it may seem to you. Let those who directly incite or advocate violence suffer the penalties of the law.
And nobody is suggesting it was the victims own fault. People should be allowed to have freedom of religious belief/practice without fear of violence or persecution, I will defend that also.
The shooter was a resentful nutjob, and the unfortunate victims were the focus of that resentment. It was a terrible event. It was a cowardly event, but I have seen it all before in various guises. This will happen again. There may well be reprisals/copycats. There will be other threads. We will all be outraged again.
Hitchens quotes 'A Man for All Seasons' rather poorly in the video, this is the scene in question:
Alice, Margaret and Roper insist on the arrest of Richard Rich:
Alice More: Arrest him (Richard Rich)!
More: Why, what has he done?
Margaret More: He's bad!
More: There is no law against that.
Will Roper: There is! God's law!
More: Then God can arrest him.
Alice: While you talk, he's gone!
More: And go he should, if he was the Devil himself, until he broke the law!
Roper: So now you'd give the Devil benefit of law!
More: Yes. What would you do? Cut a great road through the law to get after the Devil?
Roper: I'd cut down every law in England to do that!
More: Oh? And when the last law was down, and the Devil turned 'round on you, where would you hide, Roper, the laws all being flat? This country's planted thick with laws from coast to coast– man's laws, not God's– and if you cut them down—and you're just the man to do it—do you really think you could stand upright in the winds that would blow then? Yes, I'd give the Devil benefit of law for my own safety's sake.
