Morrowind.. and why its crap

Forsythe on 1/11/2002 at 22:30

Nah, no worries, Vigo, you're pretty even-handed with your logic in that you're not just slamming one game and praising another as its better. Btw, I simply haven't played BG2; I played BG1 and IWD1 and disliked their over-emphasis on combat, so I decided against continuing to follow either series (or anything else like them). For example, there's absolutely no non-linear character interaction allowed after a certain point in IWD (well, I quit after getting very near the end [after the tunnel and ice villiage], I was bored with it, so I don't know that for a fact), and with BG1 the combat just didn't make sense ("I'm at the Hobgoblin fort and I clean it out, wander so it's off-screen but I haven't left yet and then wander back... and it's fully populated again??"). To sum up, my complaint with that genre isn't that it's eye-candy, it's that it's a combat engine with a veneer of plot liberally applied to it; I like it the other way around.

(Torment, of course, is a horse of another color)

In any case, from your description, it sounds like BG2 didn't have "more adventurous quests" so much as "wildly diverse environments". BG2 traverses a more varied assortment of discrete locales, whereas Morrowind is all rooted on what can reasonably be found on a single island. (Not that I'm saying MW isn't a varied environment, but it's all what's reasonable to expect on a single, well-defined island) With BG2, it sounds like you never know where you're going next (which adds spice to the mix), but in MW you're guaranteed to have it be swamp, grasslands, mountains, coastal islandhopping, or ashlands (and assorted small temples, tombs, caves, and the like). In a way, that would explain why so many people are initially overcome by it and then end up bored when they don't discover anything 'new'.

And yeah, that's a good point re: higher expectations for AI interactions when in FP; they get to see 'em up-close and personal, after all. I know I was irritated by a number of AIs under-responsive in Deus Ex. I think it's more than just that, though; I think Jordana hit it right on when she said "I think that the better a game is in general, the more the bad parts grate, because they show up so clearly against the otherwise excellent background." MW sets our expectations waaaaaaay up high, higher than any other game has, so its weaknesses seems like catastrophies.

Calandir Malar on 2/11/2002 at 10:33

Quote:

Originally posted by Vigo
I could be wrong, but what I think he might be saying is that BG2's quests are more, well, adventurous.

I mean, think about it. You explore an underground city, get wisked away to another dimension(at least twice) have your ship capzised and fall into an unknown water city. These situations may be stereotypes of the fantasy genre, but at least they have a flair that Morrowind lacks.

Caladir Malar, are you implying that Morrowind can't be compaired to BG2 in that it is much better than BG2 or are you just that they are different games? By the content of your post I'm assuming it's the former.

By saying that BG2 is a hack and slash with "good graphics", are you saying that Morrowind favored gameplay over graphics, whereas BG2 went for eye candy overload? As far as graphics go, if I were asked which game I thought got to much eye candy treatment, I'd say Morrowind. The Devs most certainy created so much different landscapes and areas because they were good to look at.

Morrowind's world may be large and vast, with copious amounts of lore and books, but does the game world really breathe life? The NPC's stay in the same spot they always do, rarely moving anywhere, all sounding(and sometimes looking) the same depending on race and sex. The sad part is that first person mode both helps and hinders Morrowind. People expect more realism when in first person, which make the stiffness and repeated looks of the game world much more worse close up than in a top down view like BG2, where such need for realism is dismissed. Indeed, I found Amn, with it's distinct music and varying background voices for each district, much more alive than any city in Morrowind, despite the fact that most characters rarely moved and looked the same.

Eh, I hope all this isn't looking like an attempt to trash Morrowind, I am only posting this in defense of one of my fave games, so don't take it the wrong way.

I see all your points Vigo

BG2 is also one of my favorites :) I meant that those two (BG2 and MW) differ too much and i would avoid comparing them.
Although I expected more life from MW cities (MW creators should make a mod with background voices, or add it to Tribunal... like the official one with background voices for Seyda Nyen) and more variety of faces and apperance, I still enjoy very much playing MW with its unquestionable advantages.
I would also want to see more citiziens walking in on cities' streets and maybe talking to each other, but more characters could lower game performance.
As far as subquests are concerned you're right, in BG2 there most of quests are much more challenging and adventorous and fuel imagination quite a lot. However they all come to a similar end, though they are more distinguished. Unfortunatelly focus on hack n' slash is too strong in BG2 (and BG2 has more candy-like graphic than MW to me, but it does not mean I dislike it :) ).
In MW we have loads od subquest but after some time many of them become just boring, quests like "will you escort me to city X for 100 gp?" or "Will you carry this letter to Mr/Mrs Y in city X?" are ignored when you have a lot of cash and 100 gp is nothing to you and doing such quests is just a waste of time... and so forth an so on....
And some aspects of game are uncomprehensible to me, for example when guards catch you they confiscate all stolen items.. but how the heck do they know which items are stolen?
Summarising it, I regard both BG2 and MW (I cannot say anything about NWN for I haven't played it yet) as best RPGs ever. Authors of those games have my looong applause and thumbs up, though their products are not an absolute succces (but a very long step in the right direction) and there are still some things to do.

Vigo on 3/11/2002 at 04:29

Eh, sorry for misinterpreting what you were saying there. I had just assumed that.. well ,you know what I mean. :p

Anyway, yes, I agree that Morrowind has it's cool and totally unique gameplay, what with the character generation and the whole "where do I go next" game mechanic. I just started a new character a week or so ago and am enjoying my second play through much more than my first. My second character is a member of the temple, which means that I get to do cool things like take pilgrimages(without cheating by using the Temple shrine!) and take vow's of silence, which is much more cooler than anything I got to do with my Redguard in house Redoran or the fighters guild. Right now I'm in Vivec and have taken a vow of silence while on a pilgrimage to Sheogorath! Which means no silt Stiders, no guild guides, and one very long walk. :)

Pestilence on 3/11/2002 at 07:32

Quote:

Originally posted by Vigo
Right now I'm in Vivec and have taken a vow of silence while on a pilgrimage to Sheogorath! Which means no silt Stiders, no guild guides, and one very long walk. :)

I was a bit lucky on this as my house is in Dagon Fel and I have a mark spell to take me there :p

Vigo on 3/11/2002 at 07:39

Heretic! :)

Calandir Malar on 3/11/2002 at 09:20

Quote:

Originally posted by Vigo
Eh, sorry for misinterpreting what you were saying there. I had just assumed that.. well ,you know what I mean. :p

Anyway, yes, I agree that Morrowind has it's cool and totally unique gameplay, what with the character generation and the whole "where do I go next" game mechanic. I just started a new character a week or so ago and am enjoying my second play through much more than my first. My second character is a member of the temple, which means that I get to do cool things like take pilgrimages(without cheating by using the Temple shrine!) and take vow's of silence, which is much more cooler than anything I got to do with my Redguard in house Redoran or the fighters guild. Right now I'm in Vivec and have taken a vow of silence while on a pilgrimage to Sheogorath! Which means no silt Stiders, no guild guides, and one very long walk. :)

My first character was a custom witchhunter, but on about 16 level I found it boring...
I felt that my character was losing his uniqueness (I developed to wrong skills)
Now I am above 30 level assassin and I really enjoy it (especially hunting for writs and special orders from Morag Tong, and sneaking behind my enemies to stab my dagger into their backs of course, or shot at them with poisoned arrows and watch them dying a few feet before my when they try to charge at me :ebil: ) ... It's a pity that I've completed almost all Morag Tong quests

Well, good luck during your long pilgrimages :) Maybe we will meet one day :joke:

Calandir Malar on 3/11/2002 at 09:25

among things I love most in my character was breaking into every G. House's treasury and stealing everything :) now I have no idea what to do with all this stuff like pieces of ebony armor :) well... I'll keep it as nice souvenirs :)

Tom-Ice on 17/11/2002 at 19:50

the thing about morrowind is that its a true role playing game. you can go where ever you want, do what ever you want, become whatever you want. there are no restrictions. Morrowind is not like the zelda games, where you must complete a certain quest. The choice is yours in Morrowind. People always say Morrowind has no real quests, but the fact is it has so many it would take months to complete them all.

Vigo on 18/11/2002 at 04:43

Oh for heavens sake! Where did YOU come from....ARE YOU BETHESDA'S MINISTER OF PROPAGANDA?!?!?!

Awfully sorry to say this, Tom-Ice, but you sound like every fanboy that ever proliferated (www.elderscrolls.com.) I could count about a million things I cant do in Morrowind, and could list about a trillion restrictions the game forces upon me. And just what the hell is a "true" roleplaying game anyway?

I'm not trying to stifle you or to prevent you from stating your opinion. But what you wrote didn't seem to me like an opinion. It looked more like every advertisement ever released for the game.

Eh, I'm probably not speaking for anybody else here on the forum, and possibly coming off as a big jerk, but stuff like this irks me a bit.

xxxxxxxx on 19/11/2002 at 23:43

True roleplaying is about creating your own story with what the game has to offer you. True, it could be better. Im not a roleplaying newbe and had to play it a second time to see its full potential. A better Morrowind would protect the player from his own mistakes or make them fun to play.

Hints: Try to do the main quest linearly at the beginning, dont travel without direction, only do the sidequests to increase crytical skills and get knowledge about item locations, and only when neccessary.

When you got money only train the other attributes (not main attributes) to 50. Dont pay to train the main attributes that will raise you levels, unless some of them are magic schools and you have a very low mana pool. This is essential for you to stay in character.