Morrowind.. and why its crap

Forsythe on 28/10/2002 at 23:17

*nog* Good point, Vigo; I wasn't (and I'm sure Illuminatus wasn't) saying anyone should bite their tongues or otherwise not speak up. If that's the impression I gave, I sincerely apologize. For one, I do agree that I'd rather they find some other way of dealing with inconsequential NPCs without giving away the fact that they are inconsequential; Morrowind's solution, while an innovative approach to this common issue, isn't 100% pleasing. The thread just seemed to be getting a trifle one-sided, so I tossed in some counter-balancing points. Feel free to disagree and tell me I'm full of it if you think such, though ;)

Vigo on 29/10/2002 at 00:35

My post was mostly directed to Illuminatus, Forsythe, and I must say that I agree a bit with what you have to say, though there are a few things I would like to adress about your points.

1)I agree, it would be hell to give each NPC nuances and background, so I know it would not be worth it. The main thing that bothers me is the setup of the dialogue. I really hated having that stupid list with all the things I could ask. All you did was start from the top and go to the bottom until you had asked them everything you could want to know. I think the dialouge system could have helped if all the NPC's were given a common dialogue tree, with sub sections like "Tell me about..." and "where is..." At least this would give talking to the NPC's some order and structure, instead of having a big bowl that all the topics you can ask about are dumped into. Even having a dialogue option that said "tell me about Vivec" instead of simply "Vivec" would help suspend disbelief. IMHO, stuff like this could be fixed with minimum fuss.

2) I think that you are wrong about this. It is true that The Nameless One had his static elements(such as his cynisism and immortality) But you were still allowed to shape what kind of person he was like, and the multitude of dialogue options helped in this regard. I was somewhat wrong when I said Morrowind allowed for no moral dillemas and choices. There is one quest where you have to hunt down a guy and kill him. When you meet him you are given the choice of killing him or letting him go. Unfortunately(and this relates to the dialouge failings I mentioned above) this choice is represented by the two text options of "yes" and "no" Again, it could have been nice if the text of these options were expanded a bit. As it is, making the decision really doesn't give me any satisfaction, because the simplicity of the text and of the decision doesn't really allow you to feel any gratification for your actions.

Again, I think that adding some polishing touches to these quests would not have been all that hard, considering the amount of time and effort put into making the geography of Morrowind.

Beh, anyway, I'd best shut up now before I start babbling about every little thing that bothers me. (as if I hadn't started already). I guess it comes down to the fact that I feel that there is a great game somewhere in Morrowind, not just a great game, but the best game ever made, why else would I keep on picking it up after I had uninstalled it? This is why these little character and immersion slip ups piss me off so much and stop me from enjoying the game.

Here's hoping that Bethsoft gets around to making an xp that actually improves some of these elements instead of just adding more dungeons and landscapes to the mix.

Forsythe on 29/10/2002 at 01:15

Ahh, cool, I'm always a bit cautious about seeming the tyrant on here; last thing I'd want :p

As to making the character breathe more in the fashions you provide, well.... for starters, there's more than just one "shall I kill him or let him go" quest, not to mention the "I gotta kill one of 'em, so do I kill him, or do I kill her?". As to greater moral dilemmas, there's always the "which of these packs of lunatics, otherwise known as Great Houses, do I side with?", not to mention the more intense quandary of "do I side with the Thieves, or the Fighters?" I'll grant that those aren't part of the main plot though, and that would indeed have spiced things up more.

And as for NO's not being static, well, your alignment and stats can change things, sure, but that's about it; he can't be female, and any racial prejudices are easy to hard-code. Btw, please note that there are nowhere near as many important NPCs (ie: not your average know-nothing NPC) in Torment as in Morrowind, drastically decreasing the number of different dialogues required. On the other hand, Morrowind would require racial & sexual prejudices and perqs on a scale as grand as its geography to provide that same tension and personal involvement. What they do have is fairly generic and one-sided (Ajira, for instance, and her extra quests for men only, or Mistress Dratha and her extra rewards for women only), and as far as I remember it doesn't fully exploit race and class data as much as it could ("Imbecilic warrior, get out of my magick workshop before I give you a new view on life", "Bookworm mage, geddouta 'dis bar befor I 'trow you out", etc.) The reason for this dreadful oversight is, of course, the number of NPCs where it would have to be applied. The details behind why that's important are somewhat tedious and are very annoying, but suffice it to say that it'd be a rather huge effort.

On a side note, given how long it takes to load Morrowind's Dialogue tree in the editor, I don't even know if it'd be feasible to expand it by fivefold, let alone the tenfold or more it'd take to do the above if one assumed Bethsoft had an infinite amount of money and time. They'd likely have to re-architect that piece.

In any case, I'll second your hope that they make us a worthy expansion. Our rabid fannishness demands no less, neh? ;)

Jordana Chal on 29/10/2002 at 02:13

I think that the better a game is in general, the more the bad parts grate, because they show up so clearly against the otherwise excellent background. You can't help thinking along the lines of "It's such a great game, it could have been perfect if only they hadn't......(insert list of niggling flaws)"
I completely agree with Vigo about the dialogue; it would have made such a difference if you could actually use full sentences when talking to people. And I'd love to know exactly what it is I'm supposed to be saying when I admire people, especially given some of the responses I get ;) As it is, talking to NPC's is horribly similar to using the topic index in the Windows help and support section :erg:
That said, the mods I've seen so far which attempt to create less generic dialogue have been truly awful, due largely to being badly written by the modders; this may sound snotty, but if people are going to write new dialogue they should ensure it's up to the standard set by the game. Clumsy sentence structure, terrible grammar, and some unforgivable basic spelling mistakes, like spelling the names of towns and cities wrong, totally ruin mods like this. In my opinion anyway, but then I've got an English degree so perhaps I'm being too harsh :)
But as I said before, I do love this game, to the point of severe sleep deprivation. I even stayed up all night playing it once......on a weekday as well :eek:

P.S. Isn't it Ahnassi, not Ajira, who has the extra quests for men?

MagicMerlin on 29/10/2002 at 07:09

Sorry to say so, but BG2 is - in my eyes - closer to the description of crap, than morrowind. Why ?
Easily, cause some quests can be your doom in BG2. It is possible to get a "sidequest" in an extrem early stage (i mean specially the one with the actors) where you or definetly much to weak to survive it, but cant go back. In Morrowind there is alsways the possiblility to ran away and try it when you are better.
For me, BG2 is only a HackandSlash game that pretends to be a rolegame. (Make it a first person shooter and you wont see any differences. Its always: See something - kill it)

So, feel better now

Ps: The "conversation" in Morrowind is sadly a crap too. (I never read it, only klick on everything)

Forsythe on 29/10/2002 at 18:06

Quote:

Originally posted by Jordana Chal
P.S. Isn't it Ahnassi, not Ajira, who has the extra quests for men?

Whoops, yeah, thanks; that's what I get for posting from work so I can't double-check details ;)

Vigo on 29/10/2002 at 19:07

Well, it all depends on what you like. Just because BG2 is not a deep RPG, like Planescape and based on hackin and slashin doesn't mean it is crap. Besides, it's not like Morrowind is all that different. I mean, c'mon, most of the skills for Morrowind are for combat and defense. The only one that aren't are Speechcraft, Sneak, Security, Mercantile, and possibly one or two of the spell schools, and its not like there is a lot of interesting dialogue to make up for this fact ala Planescape.

Now, I'm not critisizing Morrowind based on it's partial centalization on combat, I'm just saying that it is like most CRPG's in this regard.

Nickzer on 29/10/2002 at 19:51

The main problem i have with morrowind is that if it aimed a little bit lower to the massive mark it set itself then it truly would be a classic. However it seems that some quests have just been done to fill up the numbers so to speak. However i would agree with some of you in saying that there is something to be had from wandering around such a vast and beatiful land eing able to do what you want when you want.

jstnomega on 29/10/2002 at 22:16

I was a level 37 RedGd Warrior w/hundreds of hours of play time, invested over a period of several months, when I uninstalled the whole shebang. The longer I played, the more dead the gw of Vardenfall came to feel. Concluded it was never gonna come alive. Back to the BG series, the FO series, the JA series, even PS-T. They may be smaller & more linear & w/dated graphics, but they feel much more alive.

Just my worthless 2 cents.

Skronk on 29/10/2002 at 22:57

Well, I'm playing through my 3rd 'real' character (the others were just tests) and I'm not finding it to be dull, or repetitive, or even slightly samey. I've chosen a role with each of my dedicated characters and I play those roles to the extent that the game lets me.

Sometimes the dialogue options let you down, but what do you expect from a world with 3000+ killable NPCs? Not every one of them can be unique! That's almost a retarded ideal, it is unaccomplishable (is that a word?) As it stands, I would like to state that I find the dialogue in Morrowind to be acceptable, sure, not outstanding, but it doesn't ruin the game by any stretch of the imagination.

Yeah, the disillusioned expected a perfect world, where every NPC is dynamic, has a life-cycle (daily activities), and can tell you things you need to know in context. Maybe Morrowind provides you a vision of what is possible, but itself cannot deliver that possibility. To me, that is the most praise you can give to a work of art, that it can show you an ideal.

Ok, so the terrain seems a little 'familiar' over time. Did you know that the thousands upon thousands of square miles of forests in various parts of the world look almost the same too? How about the midwest praries? Have you ever taken a trip that took you through Kansas? How boring was that? (especially if you were a kid... Oh mom look! A cow!.. Oh mom look! Another cow! Oh mom look! Another fucking cow! (ok, I know kids don't generally say 'fucking'...)) At least every place in Morrowind has a unique layout or map, they are not all the same copied dungeon.

As for this -"Lonely lame and half finished."- I'm sorry, I totally disagree with that, sure it is lonely at times, but that is part of the atmosphere.. are you supposed to feel warm and cuddly when you are wandering the outback? Is every dungeon supposed to have some neat, unique texture and map that is almost a game in itself? Is every shrine to somehow exude it's uniqueness, so that no mortal man can comprehend the unique Deadra that created it? I think the expanses of Morrowind are perfectly rendered.

Well, back to my 'Arcane Agent' I go.. or maybe not.. have you destroyed my illusion that Morrowind is a truly great game? (No, I think not! ) :)