Modding Tools: The Item that will make or Break "Thief". - by thiefinthedark
New Horizon on 9/4/2013 at 23:46
I think another neat trick worth mentioning is that DR has been upgraded over vanilla radiant in terms of the structures you can build. It's certainly not a full fledged modeling app, but by using patches, vertex editing and perhaps some other powerful tools I'm not aware of, you can build your map to completion in relatively high detail. Things don't have to look blocky or last gen. Now, as a mapper you can choose to leave it like that, or you can select specific items and export them as a model, then import them directly into a modeling app...perhaps you even give this to an experienced modeler to flesh out for you and then you can import it back in as a static mesh to replace your lower res work. It makes for a nice workflow I think and if a mapper doesn't have access or the patience to learn modeling tools, the editor gives them just enough to touch things up.
Renzatic on 10/4/2013 at 01:11
Quote Posted by jtr7
So, if entire sections of maps can be single meshes, how does one tweak it after playtesting? How easy is it to refine a map like that?
What Dema said. Even if you were to design your entire level outside of a BSP editor, it'd still be made out of hundreds of individual objects. Unless you're designing a landscape, nothing will ever be just one single mesh.
Though even if it were, fixing and refining would be an easier job than it would be in Dromed or Radiant. You have a wider variety of tools to play with that are designed to work at a much finer level of detail. Something that'd take you a couple of hours to do in BSP would likely take you 20-30 minutes in a big 3D editor.
Arcturus_TDM on 10/4/2013 at 17:18
Quote Posted by jtr7
So, if entire sections of maps can be single meshes, how does one tweak it after playtesting? How easy is it to refine a map like that?
Buildings that can't be entered can be single models. Houses with interiors need to be divided so that inside is not rendered when player is outside, one room is not rendered when player is in another, etc. One can cut the architecture in as many pieces as he or she wants. In Dark Mod BSP is still needed for AI navigation, performance optimization and sound propagation. You can theoretically make brushes in Blender thanks to .map exporter, but it's probably easier to make them in Darkradiant. So the work flow could be like this:
- make basic geometry out of brushes in Radiant, test it and tweak it untill it's good enough
- then export it as .obj file to a 3d editor. On top of that basic layout pretty models can be made.
In Dark Mod such technique has great advantage because compiling (dmap) takes much less with simple BSP. But not the whole map has to be made that way. One can combine techniques. It's up to the mapper how he or she uses it.
Quote Posted by Judith
In the thread there was something about 35 fps in that tower, which is not that much. But I guess this was because there were no proper optimisations and everything was rendered by the engine, inside the tower or not?
Yes, in 1900 x 1200 px. If I turn off post processing I have 10 to 15 fps more. Without anti aliasing another couple of points more. Besides, if Eidos thinks that 30 fps is enough then I see no problem.
Weasel on 10/4/2013 at 20:40
Quote Posted by jtr7
To restate my question: Do we NEED meshes/smeshes for everything? How limiting! Not surprising, taking away options...
Sorry for digging up a post from the middle of the thread, but...
I think the definition of NEED here led to some of the disagreements later in the thread. If you're using the word NEED to mean "a limitation," it's really the opposite. The newer editors probably do technically support creating things with brushes. The use of meshes ALLOWs for much greater detail than would be possible otherwise. Even in Dromed, using objects rather than brushes for things like tables and chairs ALLOWs for increased detail and better performance even though similar things could be made with brushes. Modern engines can push a lot more polys than the Dark engine could, but what really sets them apart in terms of graphical fidelity is the clever use of meshes, especially instancing (which allows many identical copies of one object to be stored only once in memory--something that's impossible with bsp / brushes).
Anyone who wants to continue building with brushes can still use Dromed. I'm hoping the kind souls who have been making the new patches will continue to do awesome things to the old games to make that option ever more appealing.
jtr7 on 10/4/2013 at 23:17
I don't want limits, so I was indeed asking if we are really that limited. Without modelers and means to efficiently test things, it sounds like a roadblock. We're lucky to get AIs modeled, small structures for filler, etc., let alone cityscapes.
Weasel on 10/4/2013 at 23:58
Quote Posted by jtr7
I don't want limits, so I was indeed asking if we are really that limited. Without modelers and means to efficiently test things, it sounds like a roadblock. We're lucky to get AIs modeled, small structures for filler, etc., let alone cityscapes.
Meshes only make it difficult to test and iterate if they're made in such a way that makes iterating prohibitive. The game will be ship with lots of meshes in it and hopefully they will be designed for modularity and re-use (assuming we get an editor and this matters). There could be 50 different meshes just for archways, individual meshes for windows and doors, meshes for various architectural details. If they're a lot of little things like that, they'll be very easy to re-use, and additional meshes from the community will only be needed to increase variety and to add things that differ from the environments in the game.
If entire sections of environments are built out of single, large meshes (which seems less likely, but you ever know) then it will be harder to make anything custom.
I'm not sure what you're looking for that would be less limited. I understand that you want to be able to make awesome things without it being a lot of work, but that work has to happen somewhere.
jtr7 on 11/4/2013 at 00:07
I don't know why it's not clear, but I'm looking at who we have in our community for making missions or modding, modelers primarily, not just what editors or assets the games have. We are limited where modeling is concerned, so the easier it is for our human resources to work with, the better. I'm not seeing anything that says we aren't screwed out of T4 FMs unless we get an influx of new blood, or some of our best people who've gone come back. I do not believe we will ever see an editor or SDK. Square-Enix would never allow it unless they can be convinced by EM, or the new president is more amenable, and I still believe EM will only be convinced if they really respect and like the FM community enough to do the necessary work.
Weasel on 11/4/2013 at 00:46
Quote Posted by jtr7
I don't know why it's not clear, but I'm looking at who we have in our community for making missions or modding, modelers primarily, not just what editors or assets the games have. We are limited where modeling is concerned, so the easier it is for our human resources to work with, the better. I'm not seeing anything that says we aren't screwed out of T4 FMs unless we get an influx of new blood, or some of our best people who've gone come back. I do not believe we will ever see an editor or SDK. Square-Enix would never allow it unless they can be convinced by EM, or the new president is more amenable, and I still believe EM will only be convinced if they really respect and like the FM community enough to do the necessary work.
Without the people to make things, nothing will be made. That's the whole world's fault, and it sucks. Hopefully the new game will bring in new blood. EM certainly hopes so. Maybe Newdark will warm up the old blood and bring in new blood too. Maybe I'll release a mission some time soon, for example, which I've never done before.
