Modding Tools: The Item that will make or Break "Thief".

Judith on 8/4/2013 at 18:16

Quote Posted by demagogue

This video I think shows what TDM can do with modeled architecture ((http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ErA4GDzViR0)). The building and stairway from 1:30 onwards is largely all modeled or patches I believe.

I'm afraid this FOV and the way camera moves makes me a bit nauseous :o Not sure why. The door and doorframe look like meshes, but the wall is just a tileable texture I'm afraid.

Quote Posted by demagogue

Edit: I'd disagree about the base. Or maybe it depends on what you're talking about. If T4 comes with an editor, there will be a pretty large base of assets and meshes to work with, tweak, and build off of right off. I mean TDS came with this kind of base of architectural meshes also... The reason TDS mapping didn't take off wasn't because of the meshes I think, but more the game & engine limits itself. There's a whole lot a mapper can do with even the vanilla library of meshes any game needs, I think.

I'm talking quality only. Using Anim8tor and simple UV mapping won't cut it. Actually making models for latest Unreal requires them to be fully unwrapped to enable proper shadowing. Sure, the stock meshes will be there, not sure what you mean by tweaking them - you won't be able to modify them really. Simple scaling - sure. But, they should be modular enough to allow some variety, at least for some time.

In terms of architecture in TDM, I don't remember seeing things like houses and walls or beams as static meshes, on screenshots it all looked like BSP with tileable textures. This is a very good example of static mesh "tileset" which is very modular, allowing a lot of variety, since every story and wall is interchangeable: (http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,42265.msg1095075.html#msg1095075)

I haven't seen anything of this quality in TDM yet.

Melan on 8/4/2013 at 18:21

Quote Posted by Renzatic

Bah. The only thing keeping you and the editors guild from learning how to use the higher end stuff is you're all kinda scared of it, I think. With all the funny sounding words and crowded interfaces that come with them, I can almost understand why. I mean it took me three years of feeling sorry for myself before I finally sat down and started learning it in earnest.

I haven't tried it myself, and may be limiting myself with BSP-based building (although func_static is not bad as a poor man's static mesh), but what explains the relatively low number of people cranking out maps built from collections of their own models? I see some really sophisticated stuff on places like (http://www.mapcore.org/index.php?) Mapcore for all kinds of games, but I am also noticing a lot of it is done by semi-professionals - people who want to break into the industry and are polishing their portfolios. Plus, whatever gets released is usually smaller, more limited stuff. Nothing wrong with that, but the barriers of entry seem stronger than they used to be.

Judith on 8/4/2013 at 18:32

One more thing:

Quote:

The reason TDS mapping didn't take off wasn't because of the meshes I think, but more the game & engine limits itself.

Limits - sure, also constantly looking for workarounds, because everytime you need something it's either broken, partially working or needs a substitute. Creative freedom was also limited due to the fact that you could make meshes only with 3dsmax 5.1 (strictly no other version, earlier, later, nor any other modeling software) and you also had to use it to create materials - you couldn't do that within the editor, which is/was a real chore. Long story short: T3Ed was never meant to be released to the public nor it is suited for modding. It's kind of a miracle that it was released anyway.

skacky on 8/4/2013 at 18:37

Melan is right. Level design hasn't gotten harder overall (quite the contrary sometimes), but it requires way way more time to create a pretty level than it did years ago with BSP-based engines. If you want to create a level by yourself with custom resources, you'll have to learn other programs such as 3DS Max, Blender, Maya, ZBrush and Photoshop. These aren't that hard to learn even if they are scary looking, but all of this takes time. Lots of time, while pretty much everything was available in one place with BSP-based engines. This is one of the reasons why most 'modern' levels are team efforts, like de_gwalior by fmpone and Kikette on Mapcore for instance (and remember this was done of the Source engine, a rather BSP-heavy engine).

thiefessa on 8/4/2013 at 18:50

I would really welcome modding tools; this would be a fab way to keep fans happy and keep the Thief legacy alive.

SeriousCallersOnly on 8/4/2013 at 18:55

You're all so silly with your optimism.
Do you really think people are going to learn blender to release fan missions (even if there is a editor, which i'm about 95% there won't be).
And if one or two do learn, so what? One or two missions every year? Good luck maintaining momentum.

Welcome to the next-gen, it's what you wanted.

thiefessa on 8/4/2013 at 19:03

Quote Posted by SeriousCallersOnly

You're all so silly with your optimism.
.

Optimism?
I said "I welcome...", I didn't say "there will be".

Renault on 8/4/2013 at 19:06

Quote Posted by SeriousCallersOnly

You're all so silly with your optimism.

Your solution is awesome - just give up. Why bother, right?

There's lots of talented and dedicated folks here and in the TDM forums, I'm sure there's plenty of people capable of handling this type of editing/level creation. Sure, you wouldn't see the FM output of the early 2000s for Dromed, but I could see 10-20 good quality missions coming out per year for a while. If the community could put out the equivalent of one retail game worth of mission per year, I think that'd be pretty awesome.

Tomi on 8/4/2013 at 19:06

Quote Posted by SeriousCallersOnly

Welcome to the next-gen, it's what you wanted.

Yeah! We should have stayed in the 90's, goddammit! :mad:

Renzatic on 8/4/2013 at 19:09

Quote Posted by skacky

If you want to create a level by yourself with custom resources, you'll have to learn other programs such as 3DS Max, Blender, Maya, ZBrush and Photoshop. These aren't that hard to learn even if they are scary looking, but all of this takes time. Lots of time...

This is the core of the issue right here.

One thing to keep in mind is that when you're good at modeling, texturing, sculpting, and whatnot, you're fast. When I first started out, even the most basic things seemed to take forever. You're sitting around, struggling with it all, and wondering how anyone could build even half a level after a year of constant work. It seems impossible.

Now here I am, in my intermediate days, and the things I used to have such a hard time with can be whipped through in no time at all. If we're talking Thief 1 & 2 level static meshes with just a couple thousand tris, I can get them modeled out in roughly half an hour. UVing? A little over an hour. Texturing takes the longest, because I'm always goofing around and tweaking everything down to the tiniest detail. But if I were to really push myself, I could do it in a couple hours at most.

I can do this not because I'm extra talented or whatever, but because I've practiced enough, and know the flow and technique to get things done fairly quickly. And I'm slow compared to the pros, who can model out and texture incredibly complex objects in just a few hours. Objects that would take me a week to do at least.

Hard as it is to believe when you're first playing around with them, these overly complicated programs that seem about impossible at first glance are designed to help you make what you want as quickly and easily as possible. All it takes is practice, and learning the techniques.

...and that's what takes the longest.

Thing is, T1&2 editors have the best chance in the world to learn the inner workings of 3D, because it doesn't take a lot of effort to make something nice looking. It's all the basics. A low poly object, and a single texture. If someone were to ween themselves on it and get good at it, then the next step up is just doing a little more than what they're doing now. Once you get those basics down, then the rest starts flowing in slowly. With enough practice and patience, you'd have the skill set required to do high end TDM and UDK editing.

You just have to want to to do it.