Modding Tools: The Item that will make or Break "Thief".

Renzatic on 8/4/2013 at 13:55

Quote Posted by jtr7

To restate my question: Do we NEED meshes/smeshes for everything? How limiting! Not surprising, taking away options...

How in the hell could anyone with even a quarter of an ounce of knowledge say relying on meshes for everything is limiting and taking away options?

Are you saying that BSP is somehow more "real" than using imported meshes?

Quote Posted by jtr7

The reliance on modeling screws taffers out of most hope for T4 FMs, but at least with an editor, people can rearrange assets into different configurations for awhile. It will be easier for texture makers to reskin structures and mask their original source, but that's still limited, too.

There's nothing stopping anyone from grabbing a copy of Blender and learning how to model. There are no limits whatsoever.

Judith on 8/4/2013 at 13:57

Quote:

An LE in the vein of Amnesia's - with pre-built and largely inter-compatible models and surface decals - could maybe work. Though, of course, Amnesia was built as a primarily interior-based title, so the comparison might not be that apt. And while visually pretty gorgeous, it was still an older indie game, even though it had up-to-date tech running it, especially in the physics department.

Or as in Bethesda's GECK i.e. Fallout 3/NV Editor, which has a lot of "tilesets", which is general approach to static meshes anyway. The great thing is that today your skills are the limit, more or less, you can have 30-40k polygon characters, detailed static meshes and beautiful materials. But, there's a lot to learn and practice first, the most efficient way is taking classes or buying online courses. There are many sites like Eat3d or Gnommon Workshop where you can get them.

nickie on 8/4/2013 at 15:50

Quote Posted by Renzatic

There's nothing stopping anyone from grabbing a copy of Blender and learning how to model. There are no limits whatsoever.

This is true! Not Blender though but I do consider that my Anim8or eggplant was better than sluggs'. After that though . . .

demagogue on 8/4/2013 at 16:04

As I've read, modern mapping involves 2 people working on a level, the designer and the mapper, but it could be handled by one person. The catch, as mentioned, is that they call on artists to make specific meshes for them -- although as I understand they also borrow heavily from meshes made for other levels.

So I think an FM culture could grow up around this kind of system. What we might need is a new group of modelers that are making meshes for the mappers. We've always had this 2nd group anyway, making objects and AI meshes... So the niche is there. (TDM is starting to develop a specific group for this task too.) This would just advance them up a step to work with mappers more.

Of course I think once mappers get the hang of Blender (or their favorite modeling tool), it will be 2nd nature for a lot of mappers to just take existing assets and tweak them to their needs, and even make new assets they really need.

Then my thinking is, while this might draw out the mapping process, it could lead to more contest-sized FMs that are much denser & lusher with content... which isn't a bad thing.

Also, I think it will still be quite possible to make rather basic geometry even in the new editors for bigger FMs to be made in a timely way. Just because you can go all out doesn't mean you have to.

Renzatic on 8/4/2013 at 16:05

Quote Posted by nickie

This is true! Not Blender though but I do consider that my Anim8or eggplant was better than sluggs'. After that though . . .

Bah. The only thing keeping you and the editors guild from learning how to use the higher end stuff is you're all kinda scared of it, I think. With all the funny sounding words and crowded interfaces that come with them, I can almost understand why. I mean it took me three years of feeling sorry for myself before I finally sat down and started learning it in earnest.

After I wrote that Blender tutorial down there, I could practically hear everyone going "..eeeeggghhhhhh" the scootching away from it slowly. All you gotta do is take that first step and stick with it.

nickie on 8/4/2013 at 16:18

Oh shoot! I haven't read your tutorial. Your texture thing was great though and I have got it still and I do occasionally dabble a little. But that sounds remarkably like a challenge. Well, when I get to the end of testing duties and T4 watchers go out on the piss together and agree to disagree (and remember the next day) then I might have a bit of time to have a look - or looksie maybe.

Judith on 8/4/2013 at 16:39

Quote Posted by demagogue

What we might need is a new group of modelers that are making meshes for the mappers. We've always had this 2nd group anyway, making objects and AI meshes... So the niche is there.

I guess there will be a great demand for such people, because the existing base will be both too small and will have a lot of catching up to do. Not sure what level the TDM group is on right now, but just see those intro videos to those DVDs to see what kind of skill will be expected in terms of results:

(http://eat3d.com/pillar)
(http://eat3d.com/texturing)
(http://eat3d.com/materials)

And those are already a bit outdated too.

What will draw people out is probably the time needed to finish anything decent, both in terms of audiovisual and gameplay quality. Whether it's a team or one person, it would be much much longer than for any FM right now.

demagogue on 8/4/2013 at 16:55

This video I think shows what TDM can do with modeled architecture ((http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ErA4GDzViR0)). The building and stairway from 1:30 onwards is largely all modeled or patches I believe.

Modeling objects and architecture I feel is the future of modding one way or another. So I think our job now should really be preparing tools, documentation, and tutorials for newbies to catch the wave. I think it's like anything... There's a rather steep learning curve, but once you get over the hump, it's a powerful ability for mapping.

Edit: I'd disagree about the base. Or maybe it depends on what you're talking about. If T4 comes with an editor, there will be a pretty large base of assets and meshes to work with, tweak, and build off of right off. I mean TDS came with this kind of base of architectural meshes also... The reason TDS mapping didn't take off wasn't because of the meshes I think, but more the game & engine limits itself. There's a whole lot a mapper can do with even the vanilla library of meshes any game needs, I think.

Renzatic on 8/4/2013 at 17:28

Quote Posted by nickie

Well, if you've got some time between slapping at us to shut up here and your testing duties (which I guess for the editing guild...I hope O_o), you can (http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=140608&highlight=blender) find it here.

It's not the most indepth or specific tutorial I've ever done. All it is is me messing around making a random object (that was completely unplanned, I just did whatever as it came to me) with all the basic tools you'll find yourself using over and over again while modeling.

Really, I think starting out with a BSP editor makes it harder to get into higher end modeling. The two have entirely different approaches, and you find yourself getting used to thinking of geometry as basic free floating primitives that are piled around each other, then you find yourself having to switch gears and approach it by molding simple shapes into complex ones. Being used to subtraction geometry makes the transition even worse, because you never really use techniques like that outside of Dromed and UnrealEd. Booleans are the closest things to them, but you never want to use those for game design.

nickie on 8/4/2013 at 17:47

You do realise that I haven't got a clue what your last paragraph means. But google is always at hand.

And I have no wish to slap anyone here. Unless you're being nasty of course. :)

Outside of TTLG, I'm slowly coming round to the idea that guns could be good. But when Eidos really do go in for marketing with T-shirts, mugs, stickers and hopefully, bow upgrades, I'll be up for for one of these bows and wondering how long it will take our much-loved police force to figure out what the weapon of choice was.