Modding Tools: The Item that will make or Break "Thief". - by thiefinthedark
skacky on 7/4/2013 at 23:21
Quote Posted by Renzatic
This? Not so much. It's one of those cozy assumptions some people make. There's no proof that developers nix SDK's to increase their DLC sales. Just look at Bethesda, who releases their modding tools shortly after the release of a new TES game, yet still makes a small fortune on DLCs.
Bethesda is an exception, really. Crytek is also in the same bag, their mod tools are pretty awesome. However, most AAA games have a truckload of DLCs but no SDKs in sight, and they sometimes have their proprietary engines. Publishers are more to blame than developers, though, so my original post is misleading.
SubJeff on 7/4/2013 at 23:21
The thing is - if they really know who they're dealing with they'll release it even if it would need a bunch of extra coding.
I agree Thief has a greater chance than most games, especially since 1-3 all had their editors released, but I'm still just thinking it would be a great surprise.
Quote Posted by New Horizon
Won't they? Idtech 4 is open source now and there is nothing stopping anyone from bringing the renderer up to modern standards...there has already been work done on that within the idtech modding community. The TDM engine is even improved over the vanilla D3 engine in terms of graphics. It's only a matter of time really.
Someone could do it I suppose but the previews have talked about something that is clearly next gen and many have stated exactly that - that Thief would not be possible on current gen systems, and this has just been based on watching a demo. I'm thinking the tech must be pretty advanced and impressive for them to say this. Therefore whilst it may be possible in TDM it sounds like its a serious step up.
Come to think of it I'm really pleased that Thief is going to be for PS4 and NextBox and not this gen.
Renzatic on 7/4/2013 at 23:37
Quote Posted by skacky
Bethesda is an exception, really. Crytek is also in the same bag, their mod tools are pretty awesome. However, most AAA games have a truckload of DLCs but no SDKs in sight, and they sometimes have their proprietary engines. Publishers are more to blame than developers, though, so my original post is misleading.
These days, when a developer has a proprietary engine, it usually means "we use 3DSMax for 99% of everything", and have a framework they pop all their models and landscapes into. They're not going to go through the trouble or spend the money to vet a set of tools that have to be paired with incredibly expensive software, and require a goodly amount of skill and practice to use. There will barely be enough people using it to justify the effort.
It's sad, but the days of game specific editors and the communities that rise up around them are just about gone. There are always exceptions (Bethesda and the ES games), but they're few and far between.
The one silver lining to this is if you're interested in making something yourself, there are tons of freely available and incredibly powerful engines floating around out there you can download for free. Communities do pop up around those, but...well...it's not the same as it used to be.
skacky on 7/4/2013 at 23:43
You forgot ZBrush. :p
But yes, I agree with you. A little anecdote: we had a very hard time releasing a SDK for EYE when I was still working on it, and it was, exaggerating a bit, nothing more than a slightly modified Hammer editor. It was more because it was a true mess than because publishers were preventing us from doing it. I can't imagine how hard it is to release a SDK for a game such as Thief, taking into account the fact that their engine is a "heavily modified UE3" and that Square Enix is pretty reluctant to offer mod support, which is why I don't have high hopes of seeing it released.
New Horizon on 7/4/2013 at 23:46
Quote Posted by Subjective Effect
Someone could do it I suppose but the previews have talked about something that is clearly next gen and many have stated exactly that - that Thief would not be possible on current gen systems, and this has just been based on watching a demo.
Not possible on current gen 'systems' as in consoles...but that has no bearing on what older open sourced engines can do. All that means is that they have modded the Unreal engine they're using to do fancy new things, just like folks have done with all the old Quake Engines...Xreal is a neat example as it was first brought up to Doom 3 standards and then expanded even further from there.
(
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWkhyIeEfjY)
There are already people working on idtech 4 visual upgrades. I wouldn't be at all surprised if some of them found their way into a branch of TDM at some point...and who knows what le corbeau is going to spring on us in the future with these surprise Dark Engine updates.
demagogue on 7/4/2013 at 23:47
I think the most impressive visual element in current gen games, including what we've seen in the T4 screenshots, mainly come from the number & quality of all those lush models and func_stat architecture pieces... which has more to do with lots of very talented modelers spending lots of time on them than the engine per se. Being able to use all those great models would be a lot of the fun of getting an editor.
The one thing I think the TDM engine could use to look really top level would be some radiosity in the lighting. That would be a dramatic improvement. But on the other hand we have unified dynamic lighting; so it got a payoff from losing light baking. (I don't know how possible radiosity is without baking.) Other than that, if we can get the models, we can get TDM looking just about as good I think.
I'm not saying T4 won't have a lot of great bells & whistles over TDM to add though... I don't doubt it'd be a pleasure to map on. Then again you're also married to T4 gameplay with it too, which might put FM makers in the position of laying down "lean zones" and "swoop zones" all over the place. I mean, the gameplay may not be well attuned to how our FMs have been traditionally made. But it's too early to really be sure about that though
Renault on 7/4/2013 at 23:56
Quote Posted by thiefinthedark
For a time, the Thief modding community was one of the largest in any game ever published. We've released, what, 500 custom missions for the game?
Actually, it's over 1000 T1/TG/T2 FMs. I'm not holding out hope for any kind of mission editor, but it sure would be nice. Hopefully EM won't be discouraged by the minimal interest the T3 editor got after it's release.
thiefinthedark on 8/4/2013 at 00:23
Hah, you worked on Divine Cybermancy, Skacky? That must have been an interesting time. Unique game, definitely enjoyed it.
Anyways, seeing as this is built in Unreal 3, Eidos has considerably less legs to stand on than say DICE did with BF3. It's not a custom engine, UDK is already out there, and I suggest we turn it into a PR nightmare if they don't allow modding.
demagogue on 8/4/2013 at 00:48
This article is about AI, not modding. It's interesting, but this is a strange place to post it.
The AI in TDM has some random variation built in too -- AI take different paths, they can have random events triggered in, & can react differently to some things. But they're also rather deterministic about things too. I'm really interested in procedural AI taking it the next step as well, like that article was talking about.
There was an idea tossed around for a "vocation system" in TDM, where AI are given free-form vocations to follow in their idle periods (cooks cook, maids clean, etc), so they're not on path rails or have scripted behavior. It wouldn't affect the gameplay too much because when they see the player, they move from an open idle state to a coded alert state. I would *love* to see a system like that. I've been tempted to try my hand at coding it myself.
It might be interesting to think about procedurally generated alert behavior, too, but I don't know how far that can go. The AI already take up quite a bit of processing when alerted as it is.
In any event, I'm curious how the T4 AI will compare to the other games' AI, TDS & TDM in particular, and what differences we can see.
