Fragony on 8/6/2006 at 14:44
Quote Posted by BR796164
And you can't take them their tribal structure, it's they way of living, it's in their blood.
Hey you sound just like me! sorry I had to
Only way to peace is war I'm afraid, you can keep cleaning up bodyparts or wait till peace is preferable for all parties, let them have their fight. It is possible to create a sense of national belonging if it's best for everyone, and most will understand that breaking up iraq is a very bad idea, even if it's a controlled breakup. Let it shape itselve and keep the heads down, it's the only way.
Rogue Keeper on 8/6/2006 at 14:55
It's easy to say "let's get out of here and let them fight each other if they want" but that would be a definitive proof of western cowardice and irresponsibility. Afterall it's the West who interfered into their internal matters and this chaos is a direct consequence of our actions. If we do feel enough civilizationally superior to interfere with development of other cultures, we should also learn how to clean the mess we have caused. We can't just stand and look how they kill women, children and elderly - a consequence of chaos we have caused? Continuous replacement of Coalition forces with UN peacekeepers would be the most reasonable solution. And they should stay there for 20 years if it will be neccesary.
Fragony on 8/6/2006 at 15:08
I don't say leave, I say contain. Leaving would break up Iraq and possible the entire middle-east, we should just guard the borders to prevent others from joining the madness. Just leave the cities, if you can't help there is no use in dying, I think enough have died already. A military pressence will only force all parties to resort to terrorism, let them fight it in the open. In less then two weeks the situation may have changed significantly, we will know who to talk to.
Pyrian on 8/6/2006 at 15:42
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...that would be a definitive proof of western cowardice and irresponsibility.
Heh, most of them think we've already done that.
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We can't just stand and look how they kill women, children and elderly - a consequence of chaos we have caused?
Sure, let's kill them first. :p Bombs don't discriminate.
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Continuous replacement of Coalition forces with UN peacekeepers would be the most reasonable solution.
Yes, but by essentially blowing off most of the world in the initial phases, Bush has ensured that that cannot happen.
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And they should stay there for 20 years if it will be neccesary.
Per most historical precedents I know of, I'm guessing ~50 years. Also not going to happen...
Vigil on 8/6/2006 at 16:06
Quote Posted by Pyrian
Sure, let's kill them first. Bombs don't discriminate.
Nor, apparently, do vengeful crack-addled troopers out for blood.
Convict on 9/6/2006 at 03:59
Quote Posted by BR796164
It's easy to say "let's get out of here and let them fight each other if they want" but that would be a definitive proof of western cowardice and irresponsibility. Afterall it's the West who interfered into their internal matters and this chaos is a direct consequence of our actions. If we do feel enough civilizationally superior to interfere with development of other cultures, we should also learn how to clean the mess we have caused. We can't just stand and look how they kill women, children and elderly - a consequence of chaos we have caused? Continuous replacement of Coalition forces with UN peacekeepers would be the most reasonable solution. And they should stay there for 20 years if it will be neccesary.
No it's America that did this and lied to get other countries involved (not going back into what has happened decades ago though :sweat: ). Now I'm not blaming the average American - they were lied to and manipulated. But blaming all "westerners"/Japanese is unfair IMO.
Why would it be better to keep say Iraq rather than dividing along ethnic and religious boundaries. E.g. IIRC there has been some support by people on this forum for the creation of Turkmanistan.
Regarding the idea of letting the Iraqis go around killing eachother until peace is achieved, if we ignore any moral issues we still have the problem of ethnic violence and retribution spilling over into other countries (e.g. Netherlands Fragony ;) ).
Vigil - let's wait for the courts to decide what happened before we start slandering troops that have been manipulated, possibly past breaking point, by the USA government.
Fragony on 9/6/2006 at 08:00
Quote Posted by Convict
Regarding the idea of letting the Iraqis go around killing eachother until peace is achieved, if we ignore any moral issues we still have the problem of ethnic violence and retribution spilling over into other countries (e.g. Netherlands Fragony ;) ).
ssssssssssssssst they can hear you, those we don't speak of are best left unmentioned.
Hier on 9/6/2006 at 15:25
Quote Posted by Convict
Why would it be better to keep say Iraq rather than dividing along ethnic and religious boundaries. E.g. IIRC there has been some support by people on this forum for the creation of Turkmanistan.
I think Turkey was extremely opposed to giving the Kurds their own state, as are most of the countries around there. They were victims under Saddam's regime, but left to their own I don't think they'd be much nicer. Kinda like the northern alliance in Afghanistan; "good guys" because they opposed the Taliban, but you wouldn't want them to babysit your kids.
Dividing along religious boundaries makes way, way too much sense to be accepted by a culture as religiously fanatic as that one. Someone would inevitably consider it to be admitting defeat to the infidels, which obviously Allah will not tolerate and will thus instruct many faithful followers to strap TNT to their chests and run into crowded restaurants.
Fragony on 9/6/2006 at 15:40
The east of Turkey is kurdish, and Turkey has a lot of problem with kurdish seperatists, if the Kurds in Iraq get a state of their own it would greatly destabilise Turkey in the proces, so no wonder they don't like the idea. It is the same for all 'tribes' really, Iraq's borders were created with a pencil without consideration for it's ethnic makeup. That is why Iraq falling apart would be so bad, other countries would be dragged into the conflict. The fact that Iran doesn't want a stable iraq doesn't help one bit.
