Renault on 11/6/2018 at 20:13

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Gray - So sorry for your loss. Your story was so familiar to me, not personally, but through one of my better friends. He is in a family of diehard Chiropractors, and many of them believe in similar things - you don't need traditional medicine, you only need the Chiropractic way. It heals all. In their case, it didn't as two of my friends relatives were diagnosed with cancer in the past 5 years, declined regular treatment, and died within a few years of their diagnosis.

Even to me, as a casual observer, it was so frustrating to hear all of this, and the fact that my friend could not talk them out of their stubbornness made it even more so. The crazy thing is, the other family members will still stick to their guns and refuse any kind of traditional treatment in the future. It feels like they're a member of a cult, it just seems so pointless. Especially when there's no reason to not use both methods at the same time - anything to improve your chances. I can tell you, it's probably misguided, but I'm soured on chiropractic treatment to the end of time.

Shoshin on 12/6/2018 at 23:06

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Gray - I lost my mother in 2012 to breast cancer. She was also a member of the Christian Science church. She had a particularly slow moving case of cancer, and as I found out later, knew for several years that something serious was wrong. She also tried to heal through prayer, using Christian Science "practitioners". Later, as the cancer spread to her arm (which ate through the bone, causing her to break it when she leaned up against a wall) and then her hip socket, causing her to break her hip when she tried to get out of bed to go to the bathroom, then, and only then, did she elect to attempt medical treatment. About 16 months later she was dead. She was 68, so it wasn't quite a tragedy on the same order as your wife. Having to tell my young children that Grandma had died was hard.

Here's the thing. I actually was a bit disappointed that she didn't stick to her guns. I mean, if she was going to ultimately go through treatment, why wait until it's too late? Have convictions, stick to them. Now, I should clarify. I myself am not a Christian Scientist. Or a Christian. As a child, I attended their Sunday schools, right up until I was 11 or 12 and they told my mom I was no longer welcome unless I could stop asking so many questions, and instead just submit to the indoctrination. So I was not disappointed that she broke with the faith. I was disappointed that she, for lack of a better word, did not have the courage of her convictions. Her whole life, it was a big part of who she was, and then she abandoned it. I did not want her to die. By the time of her diagnosis, she was Stage 4 and terminal. If she were going to abandon it, the time to do so was several years earlier when there was a fucking chance. By that late stage, abandoning it was pointless. So it was a weird, sad, and angry time for me. As I imagine it very much was for you.

Anyway, as a result of her accepting medical treatment, she was no longer welcome to her former church, and so spent the last year of her life without even the comfort of the faith that had always defined her.

So yes, fuck them.

My deep condolences to you on the loss of your wife.

Random_Taffer on 13/6/2018 at 03:30

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I am so very sorry for your loss. :(

Gray on 21/6/2018 at 00:07

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Thank you for your kind words. This thread wasn't supposed to be me whining about my wife's death, but rather warning about the circumstances of it.

I am quite a hard atheist, and as such, I believe that all faith in gods is more or less delusional, but I generally don't care what people believe as long as it makes them happy. I can see benefits of belonging to a religion, a community, a social group. If you ignore the blind faith bit, most major religions are largely about how a large group of people can coexist in society in one way or other without causing chaos and destruction. Don't kill, don't steal, fine. I could not fit in to the protestant church in which I grew up because of the other bits, it made no sense to me, and chose to be outside of it.

My point of this thread was to watch out for when faith becomes dangerous, and to be sure not to spread that to the next generation. Because, it starts early. Whatever you're told as a child, you'll always remember. Even if you believe healing prayers can cure anything, I'm arguing you should probably not tell that to your children, because they will believe it, and make the same mistakes. Google "christian science cancer death" and you'll find plenty of stories eerily similar to what I just told in my initial post.

Also, sorry about the swearing, I could probably have made my point without it, but it was getting me rather angry.

[Edit]

Tommy, that's what I thought too - surely we left this nonsense behind 100 years ago. I was mistaken, I assumed we passed it, and hence missed it as it was happening before my eyes until it was too late. Then again, I come from a largely secular country and moved to one with a much wider range of faiths, beliefs and misconceptions. I wasn't quite prepared for it being so close to home.

Shoshin, that's apparently quite common in this faith, but it did not happen to my wife, she was not excluded for seeking medical treatment, they're relatively lenient by comparison to more hardliners of the faith in this particular branch. My problem is the idea that you should consider illness as imaginary that can be prayed away, as opposed to seek actual medical treatment. And THAT belief starts early. I get somewhat uneasy criticising these very nice well-meaning people, they're all very kind and considerate, it's just that this delusion runs deep and it can be very difficult to suggest that they might be wrong.

SD, in a larger context, I agree with your cancer analogy, but that's a much longer discussion for another day, and not the point I was trying to make this time. I'm willing to go with a "live and let live" philosophy, even though in my heart I believe all faith is misplaced. I largely agree with most of what (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Dawkins) Richard Dawkins says, just not the way he says it. That's not the battle I'm fighting here, just trying to reduce the harmful spreading of one particular delusion.

uncadonego on 21/6/2018 at 09:46

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The most recent research suggest that religiosity uses the most recently evolved parts of our brain architecture. It could have allowed humans to thrive over other species. Altruism may be bad in certain cases for an individual, but beneficial overall for the species.