BEAR on 8/4/2009 at 01:27
Alright, I know this isn't the best place to ask this (since I already know the answer, and agree with it), but here goes. I want some woman advice from both men and women if I can get it.
I'm not going to go into the whole jist of things, but as basic personal background I'm overly eager to please people and will typically go more out of my way too be helpful than is really necessary.
My situation is this: I started going out a girl in one of my computer science classes a few months ago, and things have been going fairly well (if slow, but thats ok with me), but I'm beginning to notice a pattern. The problem is I'm afraid I'm being too nice to her and her friends. She seemed to genuinely like me at first, and was very sweet, but as time goes on, she (and the rest of them) seem to be getting a little to comfortable with me (ie, taking advantage of my helpful nature).
I didn't think I even minded this that much (I don't really have enough self-esteem to care really, but I also don't think I act like a hapless fag either, and they are all aware that I am smarter then they are so I can't imagine they think they are fooling me. That seems assholish but I'm really not, I tend to underplay it rather than over), but I've realized that aside from not really gaining ground by doing things for people, I think I'm actually losing ground.
Which sucks, because I actually like having people to do things for (I grew up on a farm and pretty much constantly was doing things for my parents, particularly my mom, probably where I got like this, difference is she actually always appreciated it a lot and let me know it), but not if they actually treat me worse and worse for it.
Sucks because when we first met and were talking about ourselves, I basically laid this right out when she commented that I seemed "too nice". I said "Yeah, I can seem like that. People take advantage of it thinking I don't notice, but I do, I just might not let on at first giving them a chance" or something like that. I prefer to be straightforward (and god they seem to hate it)
That and I remember always being told by various men (my dad in fact, not sure what to make of that) not to ever do anything for women. I know thats the general pickup consensus, but I ignored that because thats not really me (not really a selfish type). I always thought these were just assholes (ok my dad is a little bit of an asshole sometimes), but now I'm just beginning to wonder if they actually had just come to realize what I'm realizing (which sucks, because I hate the whole "lol women" or "men are stupid" bullshit, I actually accept pretty much everyone and don't go in for that shit).
I've been thinking it through and have chocked it up to some biological darwinian thing, like "well this guy actually feels like he needs to do stuff for me so he must not be worth much but if a guy treats me like shit I must really want his genes". It seems to work the other way too (one of her friends seems to constantly be chasing some asshole who treats her like shit), so do humans have any fucking chance at all? Is it one polar opposite or the other?
We're fairly open with each other in general (more than most people), and I've made it clear I don't really want to play games and do all the shit I see other couples doing all the time (and generally not being happy doing), so I'm fairly disappointed by this.
I think I'm going to give this shit another week tops before I have to let them know whats up. I'm still too nice I think to be mean about it, because I don't know if its really their fault, might just be nature, but I'm going to have to make my displeasure known. Stupid thing is I basically don't really ask for anything, but I'm sure as hell not going to sacrifice things to give things to people because thats bullshit.
Ideas? I'm probably more interested to know how women see this, because I've been stupidly good to these girls because they seem so fucking helpless and I'm beginning to regret it.
Sorry for the long ass post. And yes, I know, in the pooper, I'm on it.
Scots Taffer on 8/4/2009 at 01:46
I guess the first question here to really ask is: how are you being used and how is this affecting your current relationship? What do you mean by "losing ground" and why does it involve her friends?
As for the rest experience the following polarising range of responses:
- you're a pussy, treat that bitch like a bitch and she'll answer your beck and call
- nice guys finish last, harden the fuck up or you'll be friend-zone'd forever
- some people sniff out perceived "weakness" and exploit it, others appreciate the decency and gentler nature of people and you just need to DTMFA and find someone who won't abuse your nature
- you're being paranoid and everything's fine, be yourself (you say you're direct, just tell them where to go if you think they're taking advantage of your generosity) and continue to be open with this girl and see where it goes
Now what weight you put into any of those is up to you, personally I think they've all got a kernel of truth to them and it's highly dependent upon you and the woman (women) you're dealing with.
Your Darwinian view is ultimately bullshit in my eyes, I think that it's a nurture not nature argument - neediness/emotional problems often equate to daddy/mummy issues and troubled childhood/homelives.
If you find a girl doesn't respect you when you respect and treat her well, DTMFA (Dump The Mother Fucker Already to cite Savage Love). You should seek out someone who appreciates you for who and what you are.
However, that's not to say that you aren't potentially causing your own problems - door mat syndrome is fairly common and not just when it comes to romantic partners, I know people who through their emotional neediness devalue themselves on a regular basis and make themselves accommodate an unreasonable amount for unreasonable people (who sense the weakness and exploit it).
Ultimately that still means if you avoid bad people you'll avoid bad things but being a door mat is something that everyone should avoid and so when you find yourself doing something nice for someone, recognise that you should only do so if they appreciate and deserve it. If it's someone who next week wouldn't piss on you if you were on fire then it's probably not in your best interests to go out of your way to help them.
Ya dig?
BEAR on 8/4/2009 at 02:23
Quote Posted by Scots Taffer
I guess the first question here to really ask is: how are you being used and how is this affecting your current relationship? What do you mean by "losing ground" and why does it involve her friends?
Its not been any major things (she's not being a total bitch really), just this sense that it seemed that we basically went from her probably thinking I was just trying to get something out of her, to realizing I wasn't, to taking me for granted.
Quote Posted by Scots Taffer
As for the rest experience the following polarising range of responses:
- you're a pussy, treat that bitch like a bitch and she'll answer your beck and call
- nice guys finish last, harden the fuck up or you'll be friend-zone'd forever
- some people sniff out perceived "weakness" and exploit it, others appreciate the decency and gentler nature of people and you just need to DTMFA and find someone who won't abuse your nature
- you're being paranoid and everything's fine, be yourself (you say you're direct, just tell them where to go if you think they're taking advantage of your generosity) and continue to be open with this girl and see where it goes
Yes, all of those probably are right to a degree. As for the first, you are almost certainly right. I'm not sure I want to be that type of person, so I would be more likely to dump her before becoming like that, but point taken.
As for the rest. I have a tendency to put up with shit while giving people a couple pretty obvious "your not fooling anyone" hints, before showing them the road. I'm also aware that it might be paranoia, I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt since people have other shit besides you going on usually, so I'm not going to be hasty.
Quote Posted by Scots Taffer
Your Darwinian view is ultimately bullshit in my eyes, I think that it's a nurture not nature argument - neediness/emotional problems often equate to daddy/mummy issues and troubled childhood/homelives.
Most people seem to disagree with me about that (I wonder if people are afraid of that kind of thinking), but nobody ever seems to be able to prove why. It makes so much more sense logically to me, because when you get into personal control shit things become totally subjective and almost impossible to guage objectively. I think a lot more of our world is affected by that than we like to admit (we are animals afterall).
Quote Posted by Scots Taffer
However, that's not to say that you aren't potentially causing your own problems - door mat syndrome is fairly common and not just when it comes to romantic partners, I know people who through their emotional neediness devalue themselves on a regular basis and make themselves accommodate an unreasonable amount for unreasonable people (who sense the weakness and exploit it).
This is true. Though, I'm not really that especially needy emotionally. I'm a giving sort, but I don't really ask for that much in return (probably why I don't get much).
Quote Posted by Scots Taffer
Ya dig?
Word. I appreciate the thoughtful comments (I somehow knew/hoped you'd be the first to reply).
theBlackman on 8/4/2009 at 02:26
ST is right.
But, as things go, other than being a pushover, you have to kiss a lot of frogs before you find a princess.
If your efforts are not being reciprocated, at least now and then, move on. As the saying goes, chauvanistic as it may be, woman are few and far between. Brainless "Girls" are like streetcars, buses, or Charabancs. There will be another one along in a few minutes.
Renzatic on 8/4/2009 at 02:37
Scots question, along with the following bullets, pretty much covered everything I'd say. In short, you're not giving us too much to go on here. Basically, what I'm getting out of this is "I'm a nice guy, and I like doing nice things for people. But I might do it too often, and now I feel all awkward and used", which makes me want to reply with something akin to bullet #4 on the above list of potential responses.
Also, why are you hanging around with her friends? During those first tender days/weeks/months of a relationship, you should always keep both her friends and yours at arms length when you're both together. Don't be a complete and utter asshole about things whenever they come up, but try to stay slightly aloof when it comes to their involvement.
Thief13x on 8/4/2009 at 02:42
As far as I'm concerned I don't think there is anything wrong with following the natural progression of your personality. For example, I tend to be nice about doing shit for people up front with the assumption that people realize i'm doing them a FAVOR and that I'm under no obligation. As soon as I realize that their assumption has switched from the former to the latter, I lose almost all patience.
For example, some kid I know who lives a few apartments down is underage for cigs and asked to bum one off of me. I gave him one and then he bummed like 3 more for the road. As a parting note I told him to stop by my apt if he needed one. Well he stopped by and asked me to buy him a pack. This was fine, but it quickly became every week, and then every DAY. I had had enough, he came to the door and I bluntly told him he needed to find somone else to buy him smokes. He asked me if I could just buy him one more. I said no, go ask your buddies.
As simple as that, no need to change for anyone or doubt your personality, just let things play out. I used to have a much longer fuse for this kinda stuff years ago, but after having my generosity taken advantage of one too many times has made me get pretty blunt pretty quick, it's just natural now.
TBE on 8/4/2009 at 03:00
There's a point of being nice to people, and then there's catering to them.
One thing I've learned about life is that you must be assertive to get the things you want. I'm nice as hell to everyone I encounter through the day. Until they're not doing nice things for me, and then I kick them to the curb so to say.
About women, you'll never find a woman who respects you if you cannot assert your male traits to her. Women don't want you to be the master, but they don't want a wuss either. It works two ways, you do nice things for them but don't take crap about anything either. Try doing something assertive next time you're with the woman. I don't know what you two do together when you're not at school, but find something that makes you the dominant one in the relationship for that period of time.
Women want to be considered an equal partner in a relationship, I think. It's give and take. Let her be the one who picks what kind of movie you rent sometimes. Other times, just grab a shoot 'em up movie, grab her hand and say, "Ok we're watching this one, let's go."
Posture yourself between her and other men when you go out somewhere. You're her protector after all. Be the man she wants. Nice most of the time, and assertive when you need to be. Don't back down from something you know is right. I had a female friend that told me she used to argue even though she knew she was wrong, because her boyfriend didn't have the balls to stand up to her.
Women - you'll never figure them out totally, but let's keep them guessing on us too.
june gloom on 8/4/2009 at 03:26
I wish Scots wouldn't post so goddamn much, he'd stop being right before everyone else has had a turn.
Scots Taffer on 8/4/2009 at 03:57
19 minutes is more than enough time for someone else to post
I restrained myself
theBlackman on 8/4/2009 at 04:01
Quote Posted by Scots Taffer
19 minutes is more than enough time for someone else to post
I restrained myself
Ignore Deth... If he/they can't think fast enough, tough. :ebil:
