SubJeff on 9/2/2014 at 09:47
Quote Posted by jtbalogh
Hidden stats for progression would be a problem especially when we visit the City hub often and see the thief overpower the same environment and same enemy more. Even if the City hub changed with our progression, then the net effect is no change and the thief still fares with sub-standard equipment.
I'm not talking about hidden stats.
Let's say Garrett buys a better, darker, less reflective outfit. Think of Severian's fuligin cloak in Book of the New Sun. You know when you get it that you're going to be less visible than you were. Practically this means the light gem is one step less sensitive. Just like with The Sword. That's not hidden.
As to the hub changes, it all depends on HOW it changes. You get the new cloak because there are more torches, or a new type of streetlight has been developed. Or a new enemy, like dogs (or Siclacs ;p).
Quote Posted by jtbalogh
It is true that the upgrade seems less consequential now compared to all the other player skill used. However, you are putting too many player skill variables into your execution as evidence for upgrades to stay in the game. Your example actually helps define player skill as more important than upgrades and why upgrades are not needed.
No, it shows NEW skills you have to learn to use, skills that are only available because of your new wall running boots. It doesn't affect the other skills at all.
Goldmoon Dawn on 9/2/2014 at 13:26
Quote Posted by Goldmoon Dawn
I cant even really think of any other game that had
this level of physics in their engine, relating to the shooting of an arrow.
Quote Posted by FatSpy
Morrowind/Oblivion/Skyrim and TF2 - I know for a fact the arc is in these games, even if it is
really shallow.
Quote Posted by dethtoll
Or any other game that models bullet drop.
Goldie will ignore those though because they undermine his claim. Or he'll somehow claim it's not the same thing as he just did.
In Morrowind, your accuracy with a bow increases as your marksman skill goes up. The higher your skill, the better chance you will hit. In the original Thief game, because of the "realistic" physics of the arrow arc, player skill determined accuracy. Are you getting this? Just call me some names, or beat me down, or try and look cool by suggesting that I have mental problems.
SubJeff on 9/2/2014 at 14:26
I haven't played a lot of games with bows (and the one in The Last of Us doesn't count) but I have played Red Orchestra and good shooting in that is HARD. The bullet physics are really accurate so you have to lead a moving target and fire above a moving target, if they're at range.
The thing with Thief is a. the bow is purposely underpowered for good gameplay (and it works) as Fafhrd has pointed out and b. it's a much more considered and planned type of shooting. Its not a frantic affair and it's made to be skillful and slow.
Goldmoon Dawn on 9/2/2014 at 14:36
Yes, and this is due to the physics system that Looking Glass built into their engine. It is shocking to me that nobody else seems to care how groundbreaking the physics system was in Dark Project, which is a well documented physics simulator. People seem to take it for granted or maybe just forgot or simply do not care anymore.
Can anyone produce an example of compareable archery physics in a video game?
jay pettitt on 9/2/2014 at 15:08
(
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmhNVaM5v3Y) Probably Archery
I think the best thing about it is that when you pull off a fiendish shot in Thief you feel great. In NuThief it looks like the archery has been made really idiot proof - and that's just not the the same sort of fun. You need a risk of failure if the game is going to make you feel like you did something special.
Neb on 9/2/2014 at 15:09
Quote Posted by Goldmoon Dawn
When you shot your bow in Thief I you had to consider the arc of the arrows flight, again, due to the physics simulation in place. Not only will this new Thief offering *not* have this feature, but I cant even really think of any other game that had this level of physics in their engine, relating to the shooting of an arrow.
Projectile physics aren't anything special in videogames. But yeah, you're probably right about Thief. LGS were sitting there, working out how to implement archery, and then someone has this genius idea that maybe the arrows should be affected by gravity
"you know?, like all golf games ever, and even Worms" and then the rest was history. They had broken ground on which no one had previously dared to tread. The concept that an arrow could be treated in physically the same manner as any other inanimate missile was so outlandish that the world would never be the same again.
Goldmoon Dawn on 9/2/2014 at 15:12
Again, as clever as all of that truly was, produce an example where it was done to this degree in a video game. Golf is not archery.
Neb on 9/2/2014 at 15:18
You're being arbitrary.
I enjoyed the archery in Far Cry 3, but I guess that would offend your tastes as it mixes upgrades with the need for player skill.
Jason Moyer on 9/2/2014 at 15:32
Quote Posted by Goldmoon Dawn
In Morrowind, your accuracy with a bow increases as your marksman skill goes up.
And in Oblivion/Skyrim?
Oh.
Goldmoon Dawn on 9/2/2014 at 15:40
Its a little better than Morrowind, yes, but player skill *still* isnt the determining factor. It is still, higher skill in Marksman, higher chance for successful hit.
