SubJeff on 8/2/2014 at 22:51
The thing with arrows and potions is they are analogous to upgrades.
Compare the invisibility potion to the cloaking upgrade in Deus Ex.
First time you get access to the potions -> first time you get cloaking.
Limited use via resources for both? Check.
Limited duration for both? Check.
Permanent effect of upgrade? Nope, on both counts.
Conceptually they are very different things. Practically they serve the same purpose. Yes, you can use the cloaking more, but that's only because of an artificial limit put on the potion resources by its scarcity and price. If the cloaking ability had a 2 time use per level because the battery needed a 24 hour recharge after however many seconds use would it still be classed as an upgrade? It would, yet then it would the functional equivalent of an invisibility potion.
In the same way moss arrows are analogous to stealth boots that wear out on hard floors.
I agree that upping Garrett's stealth abilities has the potential to make him overpowered. But that shouldn't mean you criticise the entire idea. Yeah he's the master blah blah, but if he really is the master he should have the ability to recognise or make the best equipment, right? And he can't conjure these out of thin air - he has to buy them (which needs money) or make them (which needs materials). Why should the game start at a point where he has made the best purchases? Wouldn't it be interesting to see how he fares with sub-standard equipment?
Finally we need to consider the effect of the upgrade on the player. Does it make the game easy or does it just open up more possibilities? Using my example of a more powerful bow - if your starter bow has limited range you have to get closer to your target to hit it, yes? Now imagine a more powerful bow that has a greater range but therefore requires more player skill to use. You have to lead the target in a different way, you have to account for the different arc. Perhaps the power of the draw means you can only hold it for a shorter period of time. Perhaps if you miss the window of the perfect draw you'll end up misfiring and making it twang like a mofo and alert the guards.
Dismissing upgrades without thinking about how they could be implemented is just wrong in a game like Thief, because done right upgrades won't make the game easier, just more complex and involving.
jay pettitt on 8/2/2014 at 23:05
Thing is, my hopes and aspirations for a next-gen Thief game would be to have more opportunities for player skill to come to the fore and less invisibility potions. Not the other way around.
SubJeff on 8/2/2014 at 23:50
I fell through a weak wooden floor in this abandoned part of the City. I think this was some sort of warehouse but whatever it is I'm in situation. There are members of the Black Bardoozars here and they've got one of those infernal Siclacses with them. I can see a small window on the other side of this room but even when I'm still in fairly deep shadow that darned Siclacs will be able to see me. The window is really high up, and even if I get a rope arrow into the frame (which I can't get a clear shot at from here because of all the scaffolding) it'll be too high for a normal jump. lucky I just got these wall-running boots to give me the extra boost. There are 3 Bardoozars here. One seems to be digging something up in the corner of the room, one is asleep (the leader I think) and one is cooking over a fire. I'll stay away from the fire but I have to get to the leader and steal the instructions he was reading when I first snuck in here so I can find out what they are up to.
My plan is to sneak up to the edge of the shadows and drink this invisibility potion just before I run for it, so that Siclacs can see me. I'll run along the left hand wall, away from the fire because I know the invisibility will wear off too soon to take the better lit right hand side. Once I'm on the wall I'll have a clear shot of the window frame so I'll have to fire off a rope arrow in mid run, mid wall, then quickly grab the documents off the sleeping bossman just before I take my final leap off that pillar and up to the rope to make my escape.
But let's not forget, this entire sequence is going to take much less skill than anything I did in Thief 1, 2 or 3 because I've got upgrades so it must be easier, both to plan and execute. :rolleyes:
demagogue on 9/2/2014 at 00:25
I suppose to go on record with my metascore guess, I'm thinking in the 85 range, for some of the reasons mentioned here.
While there are features & mechanics that people might disagree with, I don't think they'll be broken... You either like parkour stuff or not, but you recognize it works as intended. And the world itself will be as lush as we've seen in the videos. And I think the psychology of grading is to knock points off for broken & eyesore things they find. So I think it will still fare decently. I also think it will largely be compared to Dishonored (which got 91), and on that scale, on its own terms, it'd be just a bit back, so in the 85 range.
FatSpy on 9/2/2014 at 02:28
Back on topic, even if a lot of Thief fans hate it and it lacks the complex skill base gameplay of thief and is all around mediocre, it will probably score in the 80-90 range just because you need to remember the metacritics probably aren't Thief fans.
jtbalogh on 9/2/2014 at 03:18
Quote Posted by NuEffect
I agree that upping Garrett's stealth abilities has the potential to make him overpowered. But that shouldn't mean you criticise the entire idea. Yeah he's the master blah blah, but if he really is the master he should have the ability to recognise or make the best equipment, right? And he can't conjure these out of thin air - he has to buy them (which needs money) or make them (which needs materials). Why should the game start at a point where he has made the best purchases? Wouldn't it be interesting to see how he fares with sub-standard equipment?
Hidden stats for progression would be a problem especially when we visit the City hub often and see the thief overpower the same environment and same enemy more. Even if the City hub changed with our progression, then the net effect is no change and the thief still fares with sub-standard equipment.
Quote Posted by NuEffect
My plan is to sneak up to the edge of the shadows and drink this invisibility potion just before I run for it, so that Siclacs can see me. I'll run along the left hand wall, away from the fire because I know the invisibility will wear off too soon to take the better lit right hand side. Once I'm on the wall ...
It is true that the upgrade seems less consequential now compared to all the other player skill used. However, you are putting too many player skill variables into your execution as evidence for upgrades to stay in the game. Your example actually helps define player skill as more important than upgrades and why upgrades are not needed.
What if the example had less variables? One guard to sneak past has fewer player skill variables and any upgrade would be consequential and a reason for no upgrades. (see below)
Quote Posted by Platinumoxicity
I hope Thief is balanced around not getting any upgrades. So that if the game is too hard for you in its standard configuration, you can buy these cheats to make your character more powerful than what the game was designed for. It sounds condescending, but I think that's how it should be. For an extreme example, let's say that late in the game there is a section that can only be passed if you can sneak past an enemy. You need to be able to move very quietly, and remain unseen, but the environment makes it impossible to achieve that unless you have upgraded your stealth stats. That should not happen. The game should give you a reasonable challenge without the optional upgrades, and a decreased challenge with the upgrades.
Goldmoon Dawn on 9/2/2014 at 04:04
Quote Posted by FatSpy
any game with bows ever.
I do not think we are talking about the same thing when we talk about a physics system within a game engine. The arrows you describe do not have the "gravity" effect that Dark Engine has.
FatSpy on 9/2/2014 at 04:18
Quote Posted by Goldmoon Dawn
I do not think we are talking about the same thing when we talk about a physics system within a game engine. The arrows you describe do not have the "gravity" effect that Dark Engine has.
Are you talking about how the arrow arcs down when you shoot it instead of hitting exactly where your crosshair is? That is way more common than you think
Stalker - Bullets arc down at a distance, sniper rifles need to be aimed a few notches up to compensate for gravity + distance. It's interesting because the arrows under the crosshair on the scope have an actual use rather than decoration.
Morrowind/Oblivion/Skyrim and TF2 - I know for a fact the arc is in these games, even if it is really shallow. (
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRWac-FExKE) In tf2 there was a video of a guy who walked out of the spawn in badwater, shot a random arrow into the sky and it actually went across the area between the first 2 checkpoints and killed another sniper at the end of it. You cannot see the end from the spawn so it had to have arced somehow to hit that.
june gloom on 9/2/2014 at 05:38
Quote Posted by FatSpy
Stalker, Morrowind/oblivion/skyrim, Tf2, any game with bows ever.
Or any other game that models bullet drop.
Goldie will ignore those though because they undermine his claim. Or he'll somehow claim it's not the same thing as he just did.
Fafhrd on 9/2/2014 at 07:05
Hasn't it been pretty well established that the only reason the arrows arc as much as they do in Thief is because the force that's being simulated is roughly equivalent to a child's training bow? If the draw being simulated were closer to a competition or hunting bow the arc wouldn't be nearly as pronounced (and at distances like the Keeper Training range would be effectively flat).
Quote Posted by dethtoll
Sales figures, depending on where they work. Many larger publishers like EA will sometimes disband a studio in the face of poor sales (or for no reason at all.) Indie developers, of course, need those sales to make ends meet.
Actually, a lot of publishers base studio bonuses on Metascore. IIRC Obsidian lost rather a lot of money because either New Vegas or KOTOR2 had a Metacritic score two points lower than their contract stipulated for their bonus, and they had to lay off a lot of people as a result.
