SubJeff on 8/2/2014 at 15:02
Quote Posted by Platinumoxicity
There should never be stealth upgrades in a stealth game.
Why not?
Thief has them. In Thief 1 you get The Sword. You get temporary upgrades like moss arrows which in effect decrease the amount of noise you make. You have the Eye in Thief 2 which lets you see what's going on in places you couldn't see in Thief 2.
It's fine to have upgrades.
It's not fine to have upgrades that make you over powerful.
FatSpy on 8/2/2014 at 19:58
Quote Posted by NuEffect
Thief has them. In Thief 1 you get The Sword. You get temporary upgrades like moss arrows which in effect decrease the amount of noise you make. You have the Eye in Thief 2 which lets you see what's going on in places you couldn't see in Thief 2.
None of this holds water.
If you want to stretch the word 'upgrade' to a one size fits all word to be used for any context feasible then you could consider the sword an upgrade, but if you're talking in the modern video game context of upgrade (i.e. optional upgrades that are usually straight up one path, a tree, or several attributes in return for xp/money) then no it's not an upgrade.
Are you seriously calling using different arrows upgrades? That's a pretty massive stretch.
The eye you start out with at the start of the game; it's not an upgrade unless you want to stretch the word upgrade across the grand canyon and argue "Well in the first game you didn't have it, and technically it's an upgrade from Garrets original eye."
I'm not even arguing against stealth upgrades just your use of the word "upgrade" is kind of exaggerated.
SubJeff on 8/2/2014 at 20:43
An upgrade not being optional doesn't change the fact that it's an upgrade.
FatSpy on 8/2/2014 at 20:51
Quote Posted by NuEffect
An upgrade not being optional doesn't change the fact that it's an upgrade.
It just seems like a stretch to me (the sword). Like yeah you can argue it, but it just doesn't have great footing.
Goldmoon Dawn on 8/2/2014 at 20:56
Bottom line people: Dark Project was a 1st person physics simulator disguised as a game. When you shot your bow in Thief I you had to consider the arc of the arrows flight, again, due to the physics simulation in place. Not only will this new Thief offering *not* have this feature, but I cant even really think of any other game that had this level of physics in their engine, relating to the shooting of an arrow. But then, I am just a drooling idiot who lives in an autism ward, so you may either safely disregard my post, or feel free to attack me as you see fit. Either will work just fine.
FatSpy on 8/2/2014 at 21:04
Quote Posted by Goldmoon Dawn
Bottom line people: Dark Project was a 1st person physics simulator disguised as a game.
When you shot your bow in Thief I you had to consider the arc of the arrows flight, again, due to the physics simulation in place. Not only will this new Thief offering *not* have this feature, but
I cant even really think of any other game that had this level of physics in their engine, relating to the shooting of an arrow. But then, I am just a drooling idiot who lives in an autism ward, so you may either safely disregard my post, or feel free to attack me as you see fit. Either will work just fine.
Stalker, Morrowind/oblivion/skyrim, Tf2, any game with bows ever.
Renault on 8/2/2014 at 21:05
I think the opposition to stealth upgrades refers to upgrading Garrett's innate abilities, not his equipment. He is the Master Thief after all, why would he need to upgrade anything? The "Master" title indicates there isn't any one better than him.
I'm going to be curious to see how Thief handles the economy of the game in regards to Focus - specifically if you decide to turn it off. The Queen of Beggars offers upgrades to your Focus abilities, and if you have it turned off, does that mean you're going to end up with an excessively big pile of cash that you would have otherwise spent on these upgrades? This is why I really don't like an ongoing economy in a Thief game - by the end of mission 3 you might have more cash than you need for the entire game, which will lessen your motivation to find more loot.
The original games did it best - everything bought and sold on a mission by mission basis. You potentially had to make decisions based on the mission briefing on what equipment to buy (or not buy). You were seldom in a position where you could just buy anything and everything you wanted, even if you got max loot on the previous level.
GodzillaX8 on 8/2/2014 at 21:20
Quote Posted by Platinumoxicity
I hope Thief is balanced around not getting any upgrades. So that if the game is too hard for you in its standard configuration, you can buy these cheats to make your character more powerful than what the game was designed for. It sounds condescending, but I think that's how it should be. For an extreme example, let's say that late in the game there is a section that can only be passed if you can sneak past an enemy. You need to be able to move very quietly, and remain unseen, but the environment makes it impossible to achieve that unless you have upgraded your stealth stats. That should not happen. The game should give you a reasonable challenge without the optional upgrades, and a decreased challenge with the upgrades.
Any decently designed upgrade system still gives enough leniency that player skill can take the place of inherent boosts. Stealth upgrades should reasonably only be affecting the range of things like enemy sight and hearing, and the noise you make when moving, etc.
Starker on 8/2/2014 at 22:10
Quote Posted by Brethren
I think the opposition to stealth upgrades refers to upgrading Garrett's innate abilities, not his equipment. He is the Master Thief after all, why would he need to upgrade anything? The "Master" title indicates there isn't any one better than him.
This has been argued to death over the years, but for me, it has always been the question of whether it's substituting player skill with character skill. One of the distinguishing features of Thief was that it was about player skill growth rather than about character skill growth. It was a deliberate design decision to make Thief that way and it was what made Thief so good. In the beginning, they played around with stuff like upgrades, more complex inventories and character progression, even a form of extra-sensory perception, but all of this was correctly discarded in favour of a laser tight focus on physics based stealth gameplay.
Quote Posted by Brethren
The original games did it best - everything bought and sold on a mission by mission basis. You potentially had to make decisions based on the mission briefing on what equipment to buy (or not buy). You were seldom in a position where you could just buy anything and everything you wanted, even if you got max loot on the previous level.
This was done to encourage players to spend their items. Because of Thief's RPG trappings, the designers were afraid that people would just start hoarding stuff and never use anything.
jay pettitt on 8/2/2014 at 22:44
I still hoarded.
