SubJeff on 12/2/2014 at 13:33
In it's capacity as faux outrage - it illustrates Goldmoon Dawn's overstatement of the situation and thus is being used as a device to mock his cult-like reverence of Thief and the CRPGs that he believes inspired it.
No one is "spitting" on LGS's technology, pioneering or not.
Vae on 12/2/2014 at 13:45
Yet the mocking started just after his post of the TDP box, without any outrage involved...How do you explain this?...and do you think that this type of mocking is helpful to the discussion?
Renzatic on 12/2/2014 at 21:10
Quote Posted by Vae
Yet the mocking started just after his post of the TDP box, without any outrage involved...How do you explain this?...and do you think that this type of mocking is helpful to the discussion?
Because I understand the legacy of CRPGs, whereas you obviously don't. This is pretty much self explanatory.
Jason Moyer on 12/2/2014 at 21:32
I tend to find that people who actually played cRPG's in the 80's tend to worship them less than your average rpgcodex-nonsense-spouting folks for whatever reason.
If Thief has a legacy in Ultima it's Underworld, and Underworld was pretty much its own thing. Before that you'd be looking at something like Space Rogue rather than the old school Ultimas. The proper Ultima games were not simluators in any sense of the word.
Renault on 12/2/2014 at 22:12
Oh my god, GMD is going to burst a vessel or two, look out.
Goldmoon Dawn on 12/2/2014 at 22:57
And why would that be?
I havent remotely burst anything thus far, and I have waded through tons of this stuff. If it brings a smile to my face, which Moyers recent offering did, then I accept it. If no smile occurs, it is quickly filtered. NuThief is *so* close, why are you lot bothering with the likes of me anyway! Your wildest dreams are about to come true, and your pocketbooks lighter. This is a time to rejoice, right?!?!
:ebil:
june gloom on 12/2/2014 at 23:25
Quote Posted by Jason Moyer
I tend to find that people who actually played cRPG's in the 80's tend to worship them less than your average rpgcodex-nonsense-spouting folks for whatever reason.
If Thief has a legacy in Ultima it's Underworld, and Underworld was pretty much its own thing. Before that you'd be looking at something like Space Rogue rather than the old school Ultimas. The proper Ultima games were not simluators in any sense of the word.
QFT. I mean, I get it -- certain games have influence on future games, look at System Shock 2 -> Doom 3, or the fact that there's a bit of clear Thief influence in Return to Castle Wolfenstein. Painkiller has roots in games like Doom and Quake. Dark Souls draws from a long history of difficult NES games with a clear late-90s survival horror bent. And so on. Nobody here is arguing that.
But just because a game has clear influence on another, doesn't mean they share a universe. Thief's little objectives checklist was obviously cribbed from Goldeneye 64 which came out a year earlier, does that mean they share a universe? MAP11 of Doom 2, normally called Circle of Death, goes by the name "'O' Of Destruction!" if you look at it in the automap, does that mean Ultima and Doom share a universe?
I mean, I understand the impulse -- I like to entertain the idea that Return to Castle Wolfenstein and the early Call of Duty games are in the same universe, but that's largely because they're both set in WW2 and they both use the same engine. But you don't see me telling other people I'm smarter than them because of it.
And, in regards to your first point, about people who played cRPGs in the 80s vs the RPG Codex crowd? Absolutely bang
on. It doesn't matter how influential Ultima was. It's a crap series and Richard Garriot is a pretentious hack who likes to talk down to modern game devs about quality-of-life additions and accessibility changes. No-one in their right mind actually LIKED drawing maps on graph paper in the 80s because an ingame map would exceed the four kilobytes of memory the damn computer had. I have a 3 year old mp3 player in the other room that's at least five thousand times as powerful. There's no reason to emulate the DIY crap of the 80s, it was only that way because
that was the best the technology could allow.
This is why I can't stand games like Dragon Quest or Wizardry btw. Or that new Final Fantasy fanboy orgasm Bravely Default. Using old, outdated, archaic and most of all, boring frustrating and unfun game mechanics, when you do not have to, is
bad game design. Random encounters can go die in a fire. No quest/chat logs can go die in a fire. Mo map markers can go die in a fire. No minimap can go die in a fire. I'm not going to spend hours wandering around to find something -- ain't nobody got time for that, I'm an adult with responsibilities. If you don't give me in-game navigation accessibility tools, I will spend precisely five minutes looking before I alt-tab and google it. All you're doing is adding the requirement that I alt-tab and google it, and that harms suspension of disbelief FAR more than a marker on the compass at the top of the screen.
SubJeff on 13/2/2014 at 00:01
This is a bit off the thread topic, but the last page pretty much has been anyway, but you've hit the nail on the head here.
One of the reasons we're having an influx of awesome indie games is that a lot of them are recycled retro concepts, but done with technology and design knowledge (impacting gameplay and usability) that came later!
Goldmoon Dawn on 13/2/2014 at 00:29
What, THIS thread? People are ganging up on me in *this* thread?!?! LOLOLOL
Im sorry, but I dont see anything different in this thread than any other thread in my time here. Except when jtr is here. Then he usually deflects most of the damage himself. Unbelievable. The difference between jtr and myself is that I have not invested emotion into my dealings with people that just gang up on others because they have no life of their own to enjoy.
There isnt anyone picking on anyone as far as I can see...