Ultraviolet on 27/9/2005 at 00:18
Quote Posted by ignatios
The most important thing is to try them yourself and choose one that suits you. About the only other piece of advice I could give is that often it is not the art that matters, but the teacher you find.
Maybe what you choose to get from what is being taught is also relevant? Maybe different approaches to teaching different styles all teach different things, and all of them can be useful in ways you just don't understand yet?
Quote Posted by Lioness Rampant
humble teacher
What if the teacher's appearance of arrogance is meant to teach the student humility, and later in the student's training he finds that the teacher isn't actually a prick?
Quote Posted by Lioness Rampant
And if you meet a teacher who claims he can knock you out/kill you with his chi/aura/dim mak/pressure points, run. Run very far away, and never look back. There is no such thing as the Five-Step-Exploding-Heart Technique and those who believe there are really are a bunch of nimrods. :p
On chi: Maybe it's a legend designed to inspire students to pursue it? Some people knowingly pursue the unattainable because it is an exercise, not because they mistakenly think it is something attainable or tangible. And then there are probably some that think that some ideas may be attainable or tangible and the process of figuring out otherwise for themselves is a necessary learning experience. Anyway, I'm just saying don't count some of these ideas out.
On pressure points: It works on some people. I am one of those that is very desensitized to pressure points, and through just relaxing I am difficult when it comes to joint locks, so those things aren't as effective on me, but a joint lock is just a means to an end anyway, and pressure points are only supposed to be used as subtle parts of an overall attack anyway, not as the kill shot all in one.
Quote Posted by PigLick
Its all about taking the pain.
I'd have to say it's all about not having to get hit, but training martial arts is only a secondary means to that goal. Being a good sprinter is the first.
The most useful four letters I've read in this thread so far were: YMMV. Replying to all posts, I've got to say that it's all about what you put into learning. Every style has *something* to teach you.
Quote Posted by Drunken Phu
Oh, and... I don't know if 'falling leaf' is a real kata, I just made it up. Again, didn't mean any insult. But ask yourself this: if you were to want to perform Wu Song on someone, would they need to be coming at you with a specific strike, from a specific angle, and at half speed? If not... if you can move into it regardless if they come at you with the right or left hand, straight punch or roundhouse, and at full speed - then you've got yourself a street art!
Part of what katas are meant to do is have you practice for a specific situation, that much is true. But I don't see why you see that as being useless. You're meant to use your imagination in kata and therefore safely get a simulated experience from it. Experience in one area doesn't mean that you'll be COMPLETELY LOST when it comes to anything even slightly different. Experience can be adapted.
The thing is, with a kata, there are segments you recall and pull out of it when you need it, and then you know how to connect that segment with another movement -- you know how to hit the ground running, so to speak, not having to set your feet and weight from scratch. Somebody earlier mentioned that he thought this time would be better spent just working a bag. That'd make that person pretty good at setting up a technique from scratch, but if he had to hit the ground running, for instance, having to make a transition from the full extension of one technique to a decent reset to the beginning of another, he wouldn't have the same advantages that a kata studying person might here. It's all kind of rock-paper-scissors. I say carry one of each with you just incase.
I wonder if people who are really anal about specific practical application of what they learn in the first week of their training are just being impatient wanting to learn to be a walking god that can go out and crack skulls indiscriminately. If it's like that, you don't need the ego-boost of being able to use your bare hands, you just need a good gun, lots of ammo, and 10 feet of space between you and all assailants at all times.
It's also funny that humility has been mentioned by many parties here, and yet we're using the Internet, a medium where we're all accustomed to having huge ePenises anyway.
SubJeff on 27/9/2005 at 00:20
But I don't think that anyone wanting to learn a "martial art" thinks of tv or movie kung fu. They might have in the past but I think in general there is much less ignorance about fighting arts these days.
I also don't like the term " street art". I think you are a little narrowminded about all this Drunken Phu. All martial arts can be street arts. You can learn very soft aikido without any strikes, or you can learn hard styles that are much more brutal and have practical additions to make them useful in the street. Ultimately all martial arts are about real combat though.
The use of katas is not a matter of opinion either. They are there for a reason. Many styles use them and I'll wager that yours does too, but perhaps not in a way you identify as kata.
I think what you fail to realise with the guitar and the kata and theBlackman's "any object is a weapon" statement is personal application. You are not a machine and you cannot learn to deal with every situation in a set way. That is how you start but, like playing the guitar, once you reach a certain level you adapt you the way you like to do things. That's how a flashy guitar lick comes into regular rhythm playing, that is how you can deal with an assault on the street.
That is also how new techniques and even styles (see Bruce Lee for a prime example) come into being. That is how rice flails became weapons. In fact Bruce Lee's philosophy towards TKD training was that you took from it what YOU needed.
The funny thing is this style you are learning was clearly developed in exactly the same way. Can I get a hapkido over here?
Drunken Phu on 27/9/2005 at 00:28
I don't think I ever talked about being a bad ass fightin' machine (TM) in the prior posts. In fact, the underlying message in my posts is that the bad ass fightin' machine (TM) as put forth by the traditional MA mythos is just that - a myth. No art turns you into that. Ain't no such thing.
I took the original question "What is a good, applicable art," to mean, "what is an art that is useful for self-defense purposes". I may have misconstrued that. Wouldn't be the first time.
He asked for opinions. To me, in my opinion, the applicability of an art as a self-defense system is entirely dependent upon its effectiveness in the defense of self and others. I don't think that comes from kata, which can teach you balance and a super-cool chronology of moves but will be of minimal help when it comes to learning the right angle for your wrist when striking, or how to get power into it, or how to hit a moving target with strikes out of the kata sequence.
Lioness Rampant on 27/9/2005 at 01:14
Quote Posted by Ultraviolet
What if the teacher's appearance of arrogance is meant to teach the student humility, and later in the student's training he finds that the teacher isn't actually a prick?
The teacher is welcome to be a prick. He just has to recognize the fact that what he teaches is not infallible. Telling his students that what he teaches will turn them into walking gods will just end up getting them killed when they try something stupid. My teacher would take me into the ring and beat me like a dog if I ever claimed that I was invincible.
Quote:
On chi: Maybe it's a legend designed to inspire students to pursue it? Some people knowingly pursue the unattainable because it is an exercise, not because they mistakenly think it is something attainable or tangible. And then there are probably some that think that some ideas may be attainable or tangible and the process of figuring out otherwise for themselves is a necessary learning experience. Anyway, I'm just saying don't count some of these ideas out.
I'm fine with the whole concept of chi; since I'm from a traditional system, it plays a role. We as a class use rooting, which is projecting your chi three feet into the ground to anchor yourself. Otherwise known as setting your center of gravity so well that people find it insanely difficult to move you. The visualization of the projection simply helps with that. We also do Tai Chi, which oozes chi in its teaching.
It's when you start getting overweight 40-year-old men who did a little research into acupuncture and the way chi supposedly flows through the body suddenly claiming that they can kill you just by looking at you cockeyed that it bothers me. They're passing that bullshit along to their students who in turn try it on someone and it gets them seriously injured/killed.
Quote:
On pressure points: It works on some people. I am one of those that is very desensitized to pressure points, and through just relaxing I am difficult when it comes to joint locks, so those things aren't as effective on me, but a joint lock is just a means to an end anyway, and pressure points are only supposed to be used as subtle parts of an overall attack anyway, not as the kill shot all in one.
Exactly. But there are teachers out there who claim that their deadly style of dim mak can kill you with one touch. Just wanted Drunken Phu to be aware of that so that he doesn't get sucked in by the Bullshido.
Quote:
It's also funny that humility has been mentioned by many parties here, and yet we're using the Internet, a medium where we're all accustomed to having huge ePenises anyway.
dude mine is so much biggar than urs
Quote Posted by Drunken Phu
But ask yourself this: if you were to want to perform Wu Song on someone, would they need to be coming at you with a specific strike, from a specific angle, and at half speed? If not... if you can move into it regardless if they come at you with the right or left hand, straight punch or roundhouse, and at full speed - then you've got yourself a street art!
Now you've touched on one of the basic principles of Kung Fu; adaptability. Most of our moves are designed to be readily changed to fit the situation. We don't do things like "If he comes at you with a knife held at a 45 degree angle above his head, do this!"
It's more like "If he comes at you with a knife, get the hell out of the way and beat his ass on his way by with whatever method possible." That's what real Kung Fu is all about. :D
theBlackman on 27/9/2005 at 01:14
For the most part I agree with yhu Phu.
The point you are missing or ignoring, is that the purpose of the KATA is to ingrain in your behaviour the EXACT CORRECT ANGLE FOR THE WRIST< ETC> as well as to teach you co-odination and execution.
The Power and other aspects come in a different form of training.
The excercises a dancer (ballroom, ballet, modern dance) do are KATA. The development of the athleticism and balance come from OTHER FORMS of exercise that are for that express purpose.
Like cross-training in pro atheletics, they are for a different pupose than the "KATA" of running the same pass reception pattern until you no longer need to think about it and you get to the EXACT place the ball does at the EXACT SAME SECOND.
KATA are not the simplistic simple-minded thing you are "assuming" that they be.
Ultraviolet on 27/9/2005 at 01:30
Quote Posted by Lioness Rampant
dude mine is so much biggar than urs
NO F U DOOD
Drunken Phu on 27/9/2005 at 03:04
Aaaaaaand scene!
Thanks for the discussion; I'm admittedly close-minded on the issue. I liked hearin what you guys had to say about it. Should probably spend more time in a more traditional-type system. Maybe I'd come around.
Sorry I happened to your thread, liquidfear. I hope the argument about what makes a system 'applicable' is helpful somehow. Good luck.
ALL YUOR EWEINERS ARE PWNS BY ME
SubJeff on 27/9/2005 at 07:41
You clearly just don't get it. Nevermind. You're not the only one to frown on kata or "fancy pants" techniques at first. Keep training, one day you (hopefully) will get it.
dracflamloc on 27/9/2005 at 13:24
I took Kungfu for nearly 7 years from an ex-bodyguard for Chinese politicians. You want to know how to seriously hurt somebody? Take true kungfu (not the bs corner shop "kung fu").
It's pretty amazing what that guy could do. Even after seven years I wasn't even able to stop this guy. He nearly tore off my wrist during a practice bout that lasted one punch.
That said, I have no idea where the guy and his wife (who also could utterly destroy anybody) disappeared to (probably back to Hong Kong) because when I went off to college I tried to send him an e-mail and it was gone and his phone number was out of service.
PS. If you take kungfu, don't go to a serious kungfu guy and pronounce it "kung fu", or you'll get your butt kicked most likely. ;) It is more like "kunfu" as one word.
Kroakie on 27/9/2005 at 14:42
Quote Posted by dracflamloc
PS. If you take kungfu, don't go to a serious kungfu guy and pronounce it "kung fu", or you'll get your butt kicked most likely. ;) It is more like "kunfu" as one word.
Actually, the Mandarin pronunciation is more like "gong fu".
