Martial arts? - TTLG Forums

theBlackman on 26/9/2005 at 22:26

Just to play devils advocate there Phu, sword techiques can be used with a cane. Anyone can carry a cane or umbrella any time. Both are very effective when used with skilled sword technique.

You can do amazing damage to a whole raft of people with a flexible piece of bamboo cane, if you are trained.

It can be used to thrust, slash, whip (like a bullwhip), block and parry. Just like a Katana.

Shadowcat on 26/9/2005 at 22:29

FWIW, we had some ninjitsu guys come and show us some stuff one time (just for a couple of hours), and (always assuming they held the same opinion in private that they did in public) they treated the whole 'ninja mythos' thing as basically irrelevant.

It's my only direct contact with anyone training in ninjitsu, so my assumption since has always been that most ninjitsu schools are similar, treating the myths as just that, and aiming to teach an effective fighting art. Clearly YMMV.

SubJeff on 26/9/2005 at 22:42

Hmmm. There is some good info in your post Drunken Phu but also alot of misinformation (modern "boxing" is British for starters).

I agree that alot of the styles that are heavily combat focused, like MT, Krav Maga, JKD or boxing, are useful in an immediate fashion but I think you are confusing things with your use of the word "oriental". Every system mentioned in your post is an oriental system, except boxing and Krav Maga (and even that was developed by someone who was heavily into Japanese martial arts). It almost seems like you are talking about Chinese martial arts.

Even then Wing Chun and Lau Gar wushu styles are both very street oriented and JKD (and Jun Fan) heavily borrow from Wing Chun (obviously, since that was Bruce Lee's primary art).

Ju-jitsu and aikido are both useful practically and I'll wager that no one trained in Ju-Jitsu would try to use an arm bar in real combat. Even a simple hip throw in a real combat situation will completely finish an opponent, especially if they don't know how to fall and especially if you throw them on concrete (or anything other than grass). And of course you can throw opponents into each other or just use them to block each other.

Kata is meant to train your movement and technique. It doesn't necessarily relate to the practical application of the technicque. For example, in aikido you train power in ways that an outsider would think has no practical application. But it's the flow and the form you focus on - when you apply that form to a technique it enhances it many times.

Similarly traditional weapons training can be used to enhance empty handed, street practical form and function. In aikido one learns to use the katana with bokken (olol bokken he he he) training. But it teaches you the correct timing and form to use with empty handed techniques. The butterfly knives of Wing Chun are never, ever going to be used in real life. But proficiency in their use enhances power, speed and skill when fighting empty handed.

Finally, on the whole "chi" tip, I just want to relate a short anecdote because people are always skeptical about this stuff. I believe in chi and ki use as practical concepts - "short circuit" someone's ki with a well formed ikkyo and it is far, far more effective than not aligning and using yours and your opponents ki. But when I was in the Far East I went to train with a wushu teacher. He would only teach me tai chi though, because he wanted me to develop my chi control before anything else. And he could do Iron Shirt, for real. I frikking tested it with my fists whilst he took it and until I was satisfied. He was half my weight. He was fucking hard as nails.

Lioness Rampant on 26/9/2005 at 22:43

Drunken Phu, I have to disagree with you about the whole 'don't do a traditional art'.

I'm training in a traditional chinese martial art right now and there is nothing pansy about it. The katas are done with speed and power; if you aren't sweating and aching by the end of our tiger kata, you aren't doing it hard enough. The katas condition your muscles, teach you about how your body moves and makes you aware of your balance.

Would I use "Falling Leaf Lands Atop Courtesan's Fan" on the street? Hell no.

Would I use "Wu Song Strikes the Tiger"* (knocking someone down, grabbing them by the throat and pounding the everliving shit out of their face) on the street? Definetly. :D

Not all traditional martial arts are outdated and useless.

Wu Song Strikes the Tiger actually has roots in chinese history. In the 14th century epic Outlaws of the Marsh, Wu Song visits a tavern, gets drunk off his ass, stumbles outside and pounds a tiger's head into the ground. ^_^

Ramirez on 26/9/2005 at 22:49

Quote:

The katas they practice and the slow motion striking and dodging exercises that the Oriental schools (at least the ones I've seen) engage in make for some cool-looking, graceful dance-type moves. Great for on the mats with your mates. But if

Drunken Phu, what particular martial arts are you referring to there ? Tai Chi ? I tried a few Silat lessons a while ago, and was really impressed (I preferred it to Tae Kwon Do). I'm just asking because I want to start Silat again, and that is supposed to be very much like Tai Chi, which you seem to be saying is not very effective. I'm not arguing either way, but am asking for clarification, since I also need some advice on what are effective martial arts.

TTK12G3 on 26/9/2005 at 23:25

Quote Posted by theBlackman

.....sword techiques can be used with a cane...

You know, if you train long enough (or are just crafty), you can put to use almost any object about you and use it as a deadly tool. You just have to adapt. I could list all the fun ways you can harm people with everyday objects, but why should I?

theBlackman on 26/9/2005 at 23:29

Quote Posted by Drunken Phu

[...]
Great for on the mats with your mates. [...] [...]Unless you can talk him into throwing his punches at one-quarter speed so you can set up your block-and-parry.

Guitar players practice runs and riffs (musical Kata) to TEACH THE BODY (fingers) where to go. The muscles develop a "memory".

Kata do the same and when done correctly and repetitiously teach the muscles what to do. In time it becomes an automatic and "unthinking" response for the Martial Artist. The defensive block or parry and the counter-strike occur with no conscious mental command; "Ok, right arm up to 12 o'clock, block and left fist use palm strike to base of nose."

It don't work that way. You train and practice Kata that way until it becomes a non-thought response. The Kata training forces the student to use the movement in a perfect block-strike pattern.

Wrist out of line = broken wrist or severe strain. Improper angle on the forearm strike = broken arm or severe bruising if not torn ligaments.

Kata have a purpose, and like a guitarist, slow repetition with a gradual work up to full speed is the way it is done. Once the "fingers" learn to do the walking the performer only needs to think about the music and not "fingers go to the 8th fret and do XYZ."

Quote Posted by TTK12G3

You are preaching to the choir. In the average living room there are over 50 objects that can be deadly weapons.

As the man said, "there are no dangerous weapons. Just dangerous men/women."

You missed the point. The statement was that Katana training was useless in RL. (paraphrased). The post was a rebuttal.

Drunken Phu on 26/9/2005 at 23:49

Quote Posted by theBlackman

sword techiques can be used with a cane. Anyone can carry a cane or umbrella any time. Both are very effective when used with skilled sword technique.

This is such a great point. Especially useful for someone who may use a cane because they lost some of their suppleness and power due to disability or injury or age, and would therefore be even more likely to be targeted by the two-legged predators.
Word up. I don't know if it fits liquidfear's needs or profile at the moment, but it's a well-taken point that I hadn't even thought of during my rant. (I think I might still recommend a hidden piece and a conceal-carry permit instead of an umbrella, though) :)

Don't wanna hijack the thread, but I really liked the things you two had to say earlier, Subjective Effect and Lioness, and my post wasn't meant as an insult to anyone. Just my opinions.

Forgive the semantics faux pas - I was using "oriental", "traditional", and "asian" interchangeably in that diatribe, to mean basically the traditional non-kenpo karate or Take My Dough or Shaw Brothers movie Chinese Kung Fu that most people (who don't practice an art) think of when anyone mentions 'martial art'.

You're right, Subjective - Muay Thai and Jiu-Jitsu and Aikido are from the Orient, and they also all have traditions... they just don't seem to be what people are thinking of when they say, "I'm looking for a martial art to get into." So, I was trying to use terminology someone who's new would easily relate to, and it was semantically incorrect. I tried to make things simpler but it looks like I just confused them more.

And boxing may have come from Britain, but man, since 1970 or so it's American through and through. Just ask Don King! :)

On katas: again, matter of opinion. I'm currently training in a (http://www.lotusselfdefense.com/) fairly young mixed art, as mentioned, that is pretty much Muay Thai flavored with some grapply Aikido and JiuJitsu additions. Another of the influences on Lotus is traditional Kung Fu, so yeah, we have to do The White Lotus Flower, The Flying Dragon, Mong Gong Tion, etc. As I mentioned above, it's just a personal thing: I don't think you learn anything from doing dance steps, except how to dance.

Looks cool, good for balance, but for my money you'd be better served by using that time to kick a heavy bag, work a speed bag, or spar.

Or maybe I'm just not getting the part of the kata where you learn to convince the assailants to line up and attack you in just the right sequence at just the right angles. Foolin', foolin'. ;)

And finally, Lioness - sorry I left the impression that I thought the 'traditional' arts are wussy arts. Most definitely not. I'm not one of those "My art could kick your art's ass! Woooo! COBRA KI!!!!" guys. For certain things, the 'traditional' arts are superior to the street-oriented arts. I know they're grueling workouts (and in fact, I would even consider the stripped-down variants
of Wing Chun to be more practical and combat applicable as Subjective mentioned) and require a tremendous amount of discipline and psychological focus. That was why I said 'find the art that fits your goals and then stick with it'. I was just trying to answer liquidfear's original questions as I understood them.

Oh, and... I don't know if 'falling leaf' is a real kata, I just made it up. Again, didn't mean any insult. But ask yourself this: if you were to want to perform Wu Song on someone, would they need to be coming at you with a specific strike, from a specific angle, and at half speed? If not... if you can move into it regardless if they come at you with the right or left hand, straight punch or roundhouse, and at full speed - then you've got yourself a street art!

Sorry for the hijack, liquidfear... you mentioned that you wanted opinions. Now I bet yer kickin' yerself.

Drunken Phu on 27/9/2005 at 00:00

You guys are starting to range into the realm of fantasy with the "we are virtually surrounded with DEADLY ITEMS" bit.

Sure, you can pick things up and swing them like clubs or if they're small and thin use them like an icepick. But using like the lamp on the bedroom table as a weapon other than indescriminately swinging or throwing it? That's Jackie CHANTASTIC!

And, man, guitar? That's the crux of the whole philosophical disagreement. The fingers can be trained to go to certain places on a guitar neck, sure. Just like the fingers and hands can be trained to go to a compliant partner in duo katas. Your partner will resist just about as much as a guitar when you're on the mats. Main Street Mark may not hold still so you can play him like a guitar, though. And he might have brass knuckles.

Again, I'm not saying that training with household items and doing katas have no value; I'm just saying they aren't realistic ways to train for honest to goodness fighting. If they serve the purpose you're trying to achieve in martial arts, then they are exactly what you should be doing.

theBlackman on 27/9/2005 at 00:03

A saucer can be used like Shiruken. A pencil can be used like a dagger, a rolled up magazine can be used like a wooden baton, or used to CUT your face or take your eye out.

A shot glass can scoop your eye out or take a good part of your fleshy anatomy with it, if it is used right.

A table cloth can be a defensive item or used as a noose when the opponent is off balance from some other technique.

We are not talking take the lamp and club the guy here. The use of mundane household items as maiming, defensive, or killing weapons has a long and varied history.

If your purpose in Martial Arts is to "KICK ASS" you should not be training. The purpose is for defense of self and others and to develop self-control and discipline.

No one said anything about "FIGHTING AS AN AIM".

The question was "what is a good martial art?" Not "I want to kill, be a bad ass street fighter", or other such objective.