Doc_Brown on 9/12/2005 at 09:26
A few comments, seeing as I'm trying to stay in good standing here once again:
Quote Posted by Solabusca
TDP indicates that it's across the river from Newmarket. (Servant Conversation)
TMA indicates that its NE of South Quarter. (Ambush!)
TDS indicates that it's near the Cradle (Cutscene for Drept's Story)
Location A clicks with points one and two, it's the third where I have issues. What indicates it's near the Cradle? The name connection and a debatable comment regarding the Hag? Also consider the very serious issue of evidence against (ie its glaring omission from the TDS map).
Quote Posted by str8g8
The result is ...
(
insert new map here)To preface, even though I came up with the river bend concept doesn't mean I'm dead set on it staying that way. Having said that, two questions: 1) how will we address the issue of several significant rivers, considering what we know of "the" river, and 2) way back when, didn't we decide against splitting districts in half seeing as we could never come up with a plausible explanation for it?
Quote Posted by Solabusca
Speculation on the layout of Warden precincts is going to be fairly difficult. Using it as a 'proof' is specious at best.
I agree with both of you: it'd keep things neater if they are contiguous and that's my personal preference, but while it can be considered an influence in our debates it cannot be upheld as irrefutable evidence.
Solabusca on 9/12/2005 at 10:03
Quote Posted by Doc_Brown
Location A clicks with points one and two, it's the third where I have issues. What indicates it's near the Cradle? The name connection and a debatable comment regarding the Hag? Also consider the very serious issue of evidence against (ie its glaring omission from the TDS map).[/QUOTE
Doc, that makes no sense. Location A fails on all three accounts.
In Location A, Shalebridge is across the river from... HIGHTOWNE, , and the Old Quarter, I believe.
In Location A, Shalebridge is... very, very far away from South Quarter, and not really an effective place to escape to in a hurry. It's also NW of South Quarter, and in no way connected to Shalebridge Road (the arguement for that connection makes more sense on an earlier version of this map).
These two issues sum up some of the major reasons for my debate on the matter - the discovery of a futher IN GAME conversation re: the location of Shalebridge is just more proof to add.
I will state again - given that they refer to the structure as the Cradle, both Ingame and out, it does not make sense to have Drept refer to it by the name of a district.
Far too many conversations point to B for me to be comfortable with simply ignoring them.
.j.
str8g8 on 9/12/2005 at 10:15
Quote:
... you do realize that there's more than three Wardens, don't you? There's also DeWall.
There
was DeWall, you mean. Raputo set him up and presumably moved in on his territory. In any case, we have 3 known wardens accounting for most of the known City. Donal and Reuben are small fry in comparison. I agree though that there is room for other Undermarket Wardens to exist.
Quote:
1) how will we address the issue of several significant rivers, considering what we know of "the" river
The paths of the rivers broadly indicate the path of the secondary river in the keeper\assasin map: outside the bounds of what is in the game maps I have just drawn what I consider would be a natural course, along with tributories etc. This is intended in the broadest possible strokes, not to be taken too literally at this point.
Quote:
2) way back when, didn't we decide against splitting districts in half seeing as we could never come up with a plausible explanation for it?
This addresses some of the concerns about Shalebridge being too small, and servants comments regarding the river. Although districts shouldn't be split I think it's possible to make an exception for Shalebridge, an area that formed around the Shale Bridge, on both sides of the River. Possibly. :erm:
Maybe the idea of "limited creator" should play more of a role here, as someone earlier pointed out. What if we say the following:
When T3 was in development, there were plans for a Shalebridge city section between OQ and Docks, which housed the Cradle. Somewhere along he development, this section was dropped and the entrance to the Cradle placed in the OQ map, roughly where the portal to SB would have been. In this way, there is no need to make SB a subquarter of the OQ.
Solabusca on 9/12/2005 at 13:39
Quote Posted by str8g8
There was DeWall, you mean. Raputo set him up and presumably moved in on his territory.
At the time Garret's reading Ramirez' documents, I don't believe that Raputo made his betrayal - hence the surprise later when it's discussed - it's still 'fresh news'.
Quote Posted by str8g8
I agree though that there is room for other Undermarket Wardens to exist.
We're in consensus - sadly, I think this also means we have many preceints not dealt with in the city as well (again, points to you for having 'blank space' surrounding the city in your most recent endeavour.
Quote Posted by str8g8
When T3 was in development, there were plans for a Shalebridge city section between OQ and Docks, which housed the Cradle. Somewhere along he development, this section was dropped and the entrance to the Cradle placed in the OQ map, roughly where the portal to SB would have been. In this way, there is no need to make SB a subquarter of the OQ.
Interesting. Plausible, too. Something that, I am certain, causes us both no small amount of hair-pulling!
.j.
str8g8 on 9/12/2005 at 16:51
Quote:
In Location A, Shalebridge is across the river from... HIGHTOWNE, , and the Old Quarter, I believe.
In Location A, Shalebridge is... very, very far away from South Quarter, and not really an effective place to escape to in a hurry. It's also NW of South Quarter, and in no way connected to Shalebridge Road (the arguement for that connection makes more sense on an earlier version of this map).
Hmmm ... I am linking to an unadulterated (
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v621/str8g8/city_map_complete_new03.png) scenario A map (!)
New Market is very close to Shalebridge here, so servants conversation makes sense. South Quarter and Ambush map is a fair distance, but it is a straight line up Shalebridge Road (not to the NW etc. as you claim).
Out of interest, Sola, could you explain how you interpret the servant's conversation in the context of Scenario B? Do you agree that "New Market would love that!" is sarcasm and means NM would hate the idea of lowlifes from Shalebridge walking unchecked into New Market? Do you agree that this doesn't make much sense with the smaller river, much of which is paved over/underground and quite easy to walk across anyway? Just curious ...
Solabusca on 9/12/2005 at 17:55
Quote Posted by str8g8
Out of interest, Sola, could you explain how you interpret the servant's conversation in the context of Scenario B? Do you agree that "New Market would love that!" is sarcasm and means NM would hate the idea of lowlifes from Shalebridge walking unchecked into New Market? Do you agree that this doesn't make much sense with the smaller river, much of which is paved over/underground and quite easy to walk across anyway? Just curious ...
This ties back to the screenshot we disagree about from a few pages back - from the Lost City cutscene: I think it a current river shot near where Garret enters the Lost City, you think it's an ancient flashback.
If it's modern, then the river ain't that easy to walk across (and given that we only see a segment of that river in game, it's something that may prove to be signifigant impediment - until the drought comes and empties it out...).
Now, to that same conversation... wouldn't it be Hightowne or the Old Quarter that peasants crossing from Shalebridge would invade in the map you posted? Wouldn't it be Hightowne that would be upset by shabby hordes, given that we've decided it's a high-class area?? Why would servants specifically mention a region that is not in the slightest way bordered by Shalebridge??
THIS IS MY POINT. If Newmarket were where Hightown was, there would be less debate. THEN you could claim that you were in line with the servant dialogue!
Quote Posted by str8g8
Hmmm ... I am linking to an unadulterated scenario A map (!)
A quick point - I have less of a problem with this *OLDER VERSION* of the map, as I have stated. Memory seems to have failed you in that you've uploaded Version 4, to this conversation AND your website as the most up-to-date version.
(
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v621/str8g8/city_map_complete_new04.png) str8g8 Map city_map_complete_new
04(
http://www.str8g8.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/downloads/city_map.png) Current city map, str8g8 website
Allow me to state this in bold so that it is made clear:
I have metioned more than once in the last several pages that Version 3 of the map is a better layout than version 4 - and since it is Version 4 (the most recent version) that I am arguing so vehemently against, it is very disingeneous of you to produce an earlier version of the map.Once more - I have less of a problem with the layout in Version 3. Unfortunately, that is NOT THE LAYOUT WE ARE DEBATING.
Please, please stop producing it when you have changed the layout in the *more recent* map. If you choose to revert to Version 3, fine - but we have , to this point, been discussing the most recent map. Using an older, less contradictory map to support your arguement is not a valid arguement.
.j.
MorbusG on 9/12/2005 at 21:05
quick note that I've redone some of the stuff so it can be accessed:
(
http://whitecortex.net/citymap/)
and in case it breaks again, most of the stuff I've gathered can be listed here:
(
http://whitecortex.net/~mikko/thief/)
I've been away from the maps for too long to have anything new to add right now, but I must agree with Solabusca, as I've said before, B scenario really is the one that makes most sense to me, with all respect to others.
SB being both sides of The River is acceptable to me atleast.
