Mapping out The City.

EmperorSteele on 3/12/2005 at 12:47

...

You know what this reminds me of?

Star trek.

More specifically, the debates fans get into when wondering why Klingons, in between the orginal series and The next generation (a span of like 75-80 years), suddenly grow giant ridges on thier heads, including the older ones who would have been alive pre-ridge. The prevailent theory is such:

"The limited creator theory", where they say the entire 'trek universe was made for entertainment, and that at first, those who made "the universe" did not have the money or supplies to show the klingons they way they should have looked. (Kind of a satirical, tounge-in-cheek perspective =P)

My point?

T1 and T3 were rushed to hell, first of all (As can be seen by the glaring inconsistance between the keeper map and the actual street layout in dromed), and in T3 they wanted a map that only represented our relativly few areas of play. Therefor, I think we need to apply a similar stance to the "limited creator" theory and feel free to discard the T3 map entirly, as it was meant to hold together THAT game and that game only, without regaurd to established continuity or even a little bit of fanon (Fan canon, for those unfamilair with the term. Creators DO indulge in such things; anyone who watched FF7: Advent Children can attest to that!). Afterall, if they made it for the X-box (and made us loyal fans deal with loading zones) just to get a few more customers, would they not then cater to those customers by not including information on the map that would have otherwise been irrelevant (And possibly confusing or contradictory) to the game in general, but then given us loyal fans a GOOD map (ie one that included information from the other games) so we wouldn't have to have this debate? (damn that was a long sentance)?

Does anyone get where I'm going with this? It's "limited creator" all over again, except is was more a limitation of time and imagination... so in that, do we really need to take the t3 map seriously?

Solabusca on 3/12/2005 at 15:03

Well, obviously... I mean, it's not like we've got anything else to do other than sit around debating the placement!

(I'll give a big ol' :p so folks know I'm not being serious...;))

.j.

Sxerks on 3/12/2005 at 17:17

So here is the Thief: DS map from in game:

(http://img376.imageshack.us/my.php?image=t3locations3zv.jpg)

Inline Image:

http://img376.imageshack.us/img376/6913/t3locations3zv.th.jpg

The locations of the icons "should" be where the in games maps are placed.
But "E" should be the docks, that's not even close. Its hard to take this map seriously. It is the Thief: DS map not the T3 map :)
"B" is where the clock tower is/was and also St Edgars.
"D" should be the graveyard in Fort Ironwood, and the cradle would be to the EAST of it right next to the river. Although is looks like Fort I. is labled where the blue dot is on the map.
From the ingame objective: "The Cradle is in the Old Quarter near the gate to the docks". The OQ entrance is the main front entrance to the Cradle grounds, there are no other entrances.

From that, Shalebridge could be a district(or whatever you call it) in the OQ.
You could even go as far as saying, anything on that side of the river that isn't a Quarter is part of a Quarter, like the Docks would be a district in the SQ, Newmarket could be in the New Quarter, Hightowne could be in the North Quarter, and so on.
So it is fine with me to put it the way it is in the "B map" and it makes sense now, but now we just have to make everything fit.

EDIT***************
if images are not available they may be found here:

(http://thief.wikia.com/wiki/Mapping_the_City)

(http://profile.imageshack.us/user/sxerks/)

******************

Greeny on 3/12/2005 at 19:33

Attempt at a Shalebridge solution:

Hi, I've been lurking in this thread for a while; now I'm going to try and help out. What if the Shalebridge district is the area around the second bridge (shale-bridge) and it is split in half by the river? Then we could move the Ambush map south from its current position so the arrows to Shalebridge point the correct way; and also move Assassins south so that New market is reasonably close to Shalebridge: explaining the "I've never seen the river so low..." quote. I've modified a map posted earlier to show what I mean:

(http://www.jm4seven.plus.com/temp/greenysmap.jpg)

Are there any massive problems with this setup?

Mugla on 4/12/2005 at 09:39

Quote Posted by Emperor Steele

Does anyone get where I'm going with this? It's "limited creator" all over again, except is was more a limitation of time and imagination... so in that, do we really need to take the t3 map seriously?

Yes, we're aware. We put similiar disclaimers all over the thread already, but, well... no sane person IS expected to actually read through it all, hm? ;)

It's a puzzle. A little game of wits. Like sudoku or limericks.
And it has a purpose; to help fan-mission makers into a more immersive world.

Quote Posted by Greeny

Attempt at a Shalebridge solution:

Interesting one.
Unfortunately I've been away from this work for so long (again), that my opinions can be safely disregarded, but I still think something similiar might be the answer. No second opinions, but a clear single-solution map is what I'd like to see.

str8g8 on 5/12/2005 at 13:25

@Doc_Brown: glad to have you back! And not sitting on the fence either. Excellent!

@VanHellsing: remember there is also a Shoalsgate tavern mentioned in the readables in Framed. I think it's OK to speculate on an area (not just a street, but not quite a district) called Shoalsgate.

@EmperorSteele: You're right of course, we could just call T3 non-canon and go back to the maps made by others earlier in this thread which were pretty complete (especially scumbles) but a unified map, as Mugla said, is the ideal, and something we are quite close to I think.

@Greeny, been thinking along the same lines. Obviously it's a good thing that we arrive at similar conclusions independantly. I just wanted to work through the logical conclusions of scenario B, rather than retrofitting a scenario A map.

Inline Image:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v621/str8g8/City_new.png
I have placed the maps much as you describe, but have gone a little further, for instance, getting rid of the kink in the river, which was really only ever a side effect, and moving New Quarter. There may have been a good reason for keeping New Quarter where it was, but I can't think of one (except perhaps a tenuous link to NewMarket??). The result is ... OK (I think). New Quarter comment is still viable - New Market would be the first posh area you would reach coming across the river at Shalebridge.

cheers
str8g8

Solabusca on 5/12/2005 at 17:26

Quote Posted by str8g8

@Greeny, been thinking along the same lines. Obviously it's a good thing that we arrive at similar conclusions independantly. I just wanted to work through the logical conclusions of scenario B, rather than retrofitting a scenario A map.

Inline Image:

Whoah... interesting. Very interesting.

A throwback to (http://www.ttlg.com/forums/member.php?u=26854) your earlier ideas too.

I like the reinterpretation more than I like trying to shoe-horn Shalebridge into the existing map A; but as always, both maps are incredible.

Bloody talented individiuals and their bloody virtuoso skills.

.j.

[EDIT: I take it that it's still the Baron's home between Dayport and Eastport? Oh, and I noted Darkside - an extrapolation?]

jtr7 on 5/12/2005 at 21:09

I thought Shoalsgate Tavern was a reference to the bar out front of Shoalsgate Prison near the starting point of that mission.

Solabusca on 6/12/2005 at 08:08

... I feel it necessary, once more, to point something out.

str8g8 is a frighteningly talented individual.

I may hotly debate him about certain placement elements, but at the end of the day - his mapwork is incredibly high-quality, and his artwork even more so.

So I'd like to take a moment to thank str8g8 for his continued involvement with this thread - hades, he's been one of the driving forces behind this thread since he joined it - and commend him on the work that he does that we can all enjoy as a group of thief fans.

Damned fine work, str8g8. We're lucky to have you.

.j.

str8g8 on 6/12/2005 at 10:16

Yes, I thought you'd like this one, Sola :) But really, it's just a sketch, the final one will be much prettier.

Funny, though, it does bear more than a passing resemblance to the first (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v621/str8g8/thief_city_map_str8g8_v1.png) map I posted here. Also notice the date on that map - 12 months ago.:eek:

I originally had Darkside in Shalesbridge. Threre was a ref to "a Darkside whorekeep" somewhere, forget exactly. So I was just wondering where the red light district would be - obviously it would be by the Docks! I realise that it might not be intended to be a actual area, like the undermarket, but it seems to fit ok.

Quote:

I thought Shoalsgate Tavern was a reference to the bar out front of Shoalsgate Prison near the starting point of that mission.

Yes, that might be the case.

Which 2 things brings me to my next point. I am planning 2 versions of the map. The first will be the Canon Map, which will not contain any unnessessary extrapolations, but will try to locate all the major sites mentioned in the series. It will be free of speculation as much as possible (for instance, Darkside would not meet these entry requirements, nor would a Shoalsgate area). The second map, the Community Map (which will really just be the Canon Map with an extra layer of data) will include as much information as possible, and try to locate FMs and name streets and so on. I will make a request on the FM editor threads for builders to place their missions (if they want to ...). Notice that there are grey areas around the main quarters? This will provide room for new quarters and districts not mentioned in the canon ... in this way the City can grow.

cheers
str8g8