Mapping out The City. - by Digital Nightfall
str8g8 on 28/11/2005 at 10:36
Well I'm sorry to spoil the party. First off, let's look at the cutscene in full, which I have transcribed. (Note that the important bit is in bold, and more accurately quoted here).
Quote:
D:This place hath nothing of value for you to steal.
G: I'm more interested in those papers of yours ... if they can tell me anything about a ... a crone that talks to statues.
D: Thou hast seen the Hag?
G: Not just seen, she tried to kill me, but I hear you've been trailing her for years.
D: Yea, I have followed her trail, but it hath not been clear, I even doubted anon that her crimes were more than my own imaginings, but that thou hast seen her as well ... 'Twas in my boyhood, in the orphanage known as the Shalebridge Cradle that I spied her. I didst play at a game with mine friend, and was hidden, and mine friend sought me, then a hag, an bent an evil apparition came from the darkness ... near enought to touch, my friend didst scream, but I was a child, and afraid ... and then, twas over. The orphanage grew a dark and haunted place, and now none dare enter. When came I to my manhood, and was saved by the order of the Hammer, I sought the hag again. The Hag wears death upon her as a cloak, some who meet her vanish, others with bloody work put upon their bodies, [something] told of creatures made of stone, and ever, the tale of a hag, a bent old woman, ever old, but growing no older, in a span that hath taken me from boyhood to mine own age.
G: Can you tell me where to find her?
D: She finds her prey now in Auldale, but 'twas in Shalebridge her murders didst begin. Seekest thou a start upon her trail there, tis the only place I e'er spied her for certain ... but I dare not ever return to that place.
G: Well, it's a good place to start looking. I have no interest in being the latest in her string of murders.It always seemed pretty clear to me that Drept is talking about the Cradle here. "tis the only place", "I dare not return to that place" = the Cradle. Garrett says "It's a good place to start looking" and goes to the Cradle.
So, close but no cigar, as they say. :thumb: but keep digging. Also I want to give Doc_Brown more time to get back to us, before we press on, as he's the one who kicked off the whole map-making thing this time around.
cheers
str8g8
Solabusca on 28/11/2005 at 10:42
str8g8, I think the phrase I've quoted above is important:
'Twas in Shalebridge.
Not 'twas in the Cradle, not in the Shalebridge Cradle.
'Twas in Shalebridge. Used in reference to her CURRENT HUNTING GROUNDS, the district of Auldale. You don't refer to a single building by the name of an entire district.
Yes, Drept dares not go back to the Cradle. But the cradle, sad to say it, seems to be in Shalebridge - by his own admission. Unless the entirety of the orphanage is Shalebridge.
.j.
str8g8 on 28/11/2005 at 11:02
Yes, I got it the first time. Believe it or not, I am very well acquainted with Drept's tale, it being one of the best cutscenes in T3. But, perhaps I wasn't clear.
I believe 'Twas in Shalebridge is just another way of saying Shalebridge Cradle.
Of course, your interpretation strenghtens your argument somewhat ... and it might be enough to sway the vote, which is all fine :) . I just think you are overstating it (again) and was pointing out the other possible interpretation.
ascottk on 28/11/2005 at 17:06
I interpreted that she started in Shalebridge but moved to Auldale. Not Audale which used to be Shalebridge.
str8g8 on 29/11/2005 at 15:53
Quote:
Not Audale which used to be Shalebridge.
I don't think
anyone interpreted it that way, scott :)
Quote:
Let's try to explain the few unpleasentries we have with this version.
Trying to sum this up a bit, there is a discrepency between the T1/T2 picture of the city and the one presented in T3, this has been pretty much the whole problem. And so it is with Shalebridge - T1/T2 evidence pulls it northwards across the river, T3 evidence points to it being south around Shalebridge Cradle. And let's not forget that even with T3 there is inconsistency with regard to the placement of the Cradle (and so Shalebridge) so that in a cutscene we see it labelled at the first bridge, while in-game we see it in the Old Quarter map, which is tied to 2nd bridge via the final cutscene which marks the Catastophe monument. This much we all know. So as for creating a truly accurate map, this is doomed; if the city is a jigsaw then several pieces are missing and the pieces we have aren't even from the same box!
Perhaps my attachment to the original layout stems from an attachment to the original games, over and above T3. But in other ways T3 is the most complete version of city (for instance the city map and city sections). Maybe we should allow the T3 data to override the T1/T2 data, where there is such inconsistencies?
One possibility would be that Shalebridge straddles the river, being the area around the Shale Bridge, on either bank. This would mean there is more room for big addresses on Taft avenue. It would also mean that the infamous servant's chatter could refer to the big river too.
(
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v621/str8g8/SB01.jpg) Shalebridge
Solabusca on 30/11/2005 at 13:34
That particular entryway, yes.
.j.
Doc_Brown on 3/12/2005 at 08:02
I was just resting my eyes!
Okay, I admit it, I so enjoyed my newfound free time that I decided to selfishly wallow in it for awhile instead of jumping right back into this. Like Mugla said, plans don't always go as they should. Still, when you've, say, owned a stack of games for two years and never had the time to play them, maybe you deserve a break. But I'm back now, for real this time, and I tremendously appreciate the fact that my opinion is valued in these matters.
So, after going over the past ten pages to brush up on the state of the union, it seems the big issue at this stage is the A/B question, am I right? So what it comes down to is the most compatible evidence. If we go with A, the discrepancy is the naming of the Cradle. If we go with B, the discrepancy is the river comment (and the Ambush! map, unless we make str8g8's suggested shift). Of the two, A seems the best choice to me. The Shalebridge Road at least tries to address the discrepancy, whereas B simply has us disregarding evidence. But if I've overlooked something in my absence, by all means correct me.
While I'm here, I should also mention my stance on Murkbell, Shoalsgate, and the like. Personally, I say we leave these comlpetely out and to the discretion of others. With FM's, I think there are far too many for us to ever fit together as a whole (think of the size of the task!), as well as the canon issue. As for supposed districts, I believe we shouldn't deviate from certainties. We must be strict if we are to accomplish this task. Better, I say, to leave the area between Shalebridge (A placement) and Auldale vague, so that each of us may choose for ourselves what lay inbetween, be it Shoalsgate, Murkbell, or whatnot.
van HellSing on 3/12/2005 at 08:11
Shoalsgate is from Thief2 (Shoalsgate Station from Framed), not an fm. I'd just say it's a street name though.
Solabusca on 3/12/2005 at 08:58
Quote Posted by Doc_Brown
I was just resting my eyes!
...
If we go with B, the discrepancy is the river comment (and the Ambush! map, unless we make str8g8's suggested shift).
AND the most recent connection, the cutscenes in TDS that suggest to myself (and others) that the Cradle is in Shalebridge. Take another look, oh my tired-eyed Doctor.
Quote:
Of the two, A seems the best choice to me. The Shalebridge Road at least tries to address the discrepancy, whereas B simply has us disregarding evidence. But if I've overlooked something in my absence, by all means correct me.
This is my concern - WHAT evidence?
In game dialogues and maps that cross all three games indicate that Shalebridge is not that far north, and that it is directly across a river (not necessarily THE river), from Newmarket.
T:DP indicates that it's across the river from Newmarket. (Servant Conversation)
T:MA indicates that its NE of South Quarter. (Ambush!)
T:DS indicates that it's near the Cradle (Cutscene for Drept's Story)
All I'd like is some concrete evidence that points to another location - hell, even str8g8 initially had similar doubts in his first post to this thread.
Quote:
While I'm here, I should also mention my stance on Murkbell, Shoalsgate, and the like. Personally, I say we leave these comlpetely out and to the discretion of others. With FM's, I think there are far too many for us to ever fit together as a whole (think of the size of the task!), as well as the canon issue. As for supposed districts, I believe we shouldn't deviate from certainties. We must be strict if we are to accomplish this task. Better, I say, to leave the area between Shalebridge (A placement) and Auldale vague, so that each of us may choose for ourselves what lay inbetween, be it Shoalsgate, Murkbell, or whatnot.
Oddly enough, I agree for the most part - I just needed something to take the place of str8g8's placement.
.j.
