Mapping out The City.

str8g8 on 20/9/2005 at 08:16

You keep haranguing me about evidence but the mountains of 'evidence' you have supplied amounts to:

1. OQ is a funny shape.
2. Shalebridge Cradle ought to be in Shalebridge.
:erg:

The evidence I am talking about is negative - I am not trying to show why Shalebridge is where we have placed it, I am trying to show you why it CAN'T be where you have placed it. Perhaps that's why you keep ignoring it.

This is the crux of it:

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The T3 City Map is missing reference to Newmarket, DownTowne, Hightowne or any of the other pre-existing districts - because it focuses on places where the action takes place.

This is exactly my point. Shalebridge Cradle is part of where the "action takes place". IF Shalebridge Cradle is in an area called Shalebridge it would be marked on this map. It isn't. End of story.

EDIT:

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Unfortunately, I cannot

You said it right there. There can be no debate with someone who cannot even entertain the possibility that they are wrong.

MorbusG on 20/9/2005 at 09:05

Man it's getting hot in here. *Pours some more water on the kiuas*

I say it again: Shalebridge doesn't fit in the area next/near/around to the cradle. Sola, (http://whitecortex.net/~mikko/thief) see how hard I've tried that. It would end up being unacceptable small. Like three houses and the cradle. Even more so, when you look at the shipping label from S&R:

Page_0: "Ship From: Gilver Exporting Co
1369 Winston Avenue Bay#7933
Wayside Dock District

Ship To: Manny Jabrielle
499 Taft Avenue
Shalebridge"

449 Taft Avenue.

I rest my case.
Even if we would accept the smallness, G's T1/2 home would be in Wayside Docks. Something I wouldn't swallow easily.

@Dark Arrow: I don't think the artifacts map is canon as in-game the place where you put the artifact is by the ocean, as you might recall.

Solabusca on 20/9/2005 at 10:00

Quote Posted by str8g8

You keep haranguing me about evidence but the mountains of 'evidence' you have supplied amounts to:

1. OQ is a funny shape.
2. Shalebridge Cradle ought to be in Shalebridge.

Please tell me that this is not all you've gotten out of the reams of evidence I've provided.

Actually, 1. has nothing - absolutely nothing - to do with my evidence, mate. You're the one who's got the OQ subdivided already - if it is, great, if it's not, great - it's a SEPERATE ISSUE. I'm not sure why you've focussed on it with regards to SB - it's something I had issue with UNTIL YOU PROVIDED A SIMPLE LINE MAP showing how you've folded some sections into OQ as sub-divisions. I still think it's too large, but that is a SEPERATE ISSUE, and one that I've dropped, thankyouverymuch. It is not part of this conversation. Unless, that is, you make it so by trying to use it against me.

My positive evidence:
*A map that points NE to Shalebridge
*a pair of mission objectives that provide more than a hint that the goal is to get past the gates of Shalebridge Road and into Shalebridge
*a ROAD CALLED SHALEBRIDGE
*a building in the same area (based on the current shape of the map) called the Shalebridge Cradle.

Add to that, a river that could very well be one described in conversation between two servants as being between Newmarket and Shalebridge, and SAID CONVERSATION, as well as in-game images of said river as the place in Newmarket that the keepers have locked with a seal, beneath which is the Lost City.

Yours:... nothing, really. You've been putting forward this concept since (http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1174979#post1174979) THIS POST with no evidenciary backups.

That's ALL I'VE ASKED, ye glaikit taffer! ONE SCRAP OF EVIDENCE to support your claim, beyond what you've been providing - that it just 'feels right'. 'Cause it doesn't to me.

Quote Posted by str8g8

This is exactly my point. Shalebridge Cradle is part of where the "action takes place". IF Shalebridge Cradle is in an area called Shalebridge it would be marked on this map. It isn't. End of story.

Good catch. Now provide me some scrap of positive evidence that you're right, because I've provided a ton of evidence that you're wrong:

1) Your SB is NNW, not NE of SQ.
2) Your SB is nowhere NEAR close enough to South Quarter to be an effective escape for Garret. He has to cross the entire city, backtracking as well, when he's being hunted by the guard.
3) Your SB is not across a river from Newmarket. It is across a river from OQ and Hightowne.
4) Your supposition that 'Shalebridge Road' stretches up into SB and then to the Cradle (one of your initial points in the post I flagged) has failed to be supported.

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You said it right there. There can be no debate with someone who cannot even entertain the possibility that they are wrong.

Wow, and you accuse ME of taking this personally. Ignore the last part of my paragraph, why don't you? Here it is again: I cannot say you may be right without evidence - and you've failed to provide me any, positive or negative.

I've provided scads of evidence. I've gone out of my way to show you, both verbally and with images, what my point is - which, given what you've claimed are my arguments you've completely missed. I've provided in game dialogue, in game maps, out-of-game maps, and the like - all that I've asked is that you do the same. You have failed to do so, and instead stand behind your claim that because this is the way it is RIGHT NOW on the map, that's all the proof you need.

Again, ALL I HAVE ASKED IS FOR YOU TO PROVIDE THE EVIDENCE THAT SET YOU DOWN THIS PATH.

Right now we could be working on a happy medium - something that could please both of us. Instead you're taking half of what I say and twisting it into useless snark.

Now, the smart thing to do would be to put this aside, and try and find a location that we can agree on. Your frustration seems to be springing from the fact that I've challenged the current placement of SB, and that I can't accept your reasons for placing it there. My frustration is stemming from the fact that you've failed to provide any reasons, and that you're ignoring all the evidence I've brought to bear.

Oh, and an aside to MorbusG.

Quote Posted by MorbusG

449 Taft Avenue.

I rest my case.
Even if we would accept the smallness, G's T1/2 home would be in Wayside Docks. Something I wouldn't swallow easily.

Why are you presupposing a style of addressing that may or may not exist in the City? This path has already been trod upon with inconclusive results, as well. My house is 50. It's the first house on my street. My old house was 362. There were a grand total of fourteen houses on that street. So your 'proof', well, it isn't, really.

Oh, and given that Garret lives in SQ, I'm not sure where you're getting the fact that he'd live in the Docks. Care to follow up on that one?

All I want is someone to show me the logic in it's current placement - then we can come up with something mutually satisfactory. Because right now there IS NO LOGIC. It doesn't fit in-game information AT ALL.

.j.

str8g8 on 20/9/2005 at 10:11

Quote:

Man it's getting hot in here. *Pours some more water on the kiuas*

Um, yes. I agree it's getting a bit confrontational. I apologise in advance if I offend anyone.

Anyway, on to other matters:
@Dark Arrow:

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1. I'm not sure that the Ambush map shows that Shalebridge is far away. The arrows could be pointing to the center of the district. I assumed that Shalebridge is beyond that gate, but I see the difficulty of it being there as I look at the maps.

Yes, I think we all make that assumption at first, I think. But if that is the case then why put arrows at all? The point I wanted to make is that area just beyond the gate is not Shalebridge. Now we can argue whether SB is 10 feet away from there or 10 miles, but the point stands.

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2. Is the Hag's map considered non canon? This is mainly because of the location of the docks receptable. The mark seems to be in the center of the district instead of being near the ocean as it should. Or does the marks in the map show the center of the district?

This is one of the discrepencies that we can't fix because it is the original devs doing. We can only say that the Docks areas, as experienced by players, should take precedence over the Hag's map

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3. I don't think Downtown is part of OQ. If I remember correctly, the keeper's map shows a wall between OQ and Downtown, so I think they were seperated atleast 200-50 years ago in the City's history.

Well, I agree with you 100% on this, I just seem to be confusing matters, (for which I apologise). I never intended to say that Downtowne and Stonemarket were "part of" Old Quarter as such. As you quite rightly say, there are walls between them and they are clearly referred to as districts in their own right. It was the result of speculation about how these areas might have evolved out of OQ, and that these smaller districts (ie Newmarket and Hightowne as well) might not be full-blown Quarters in the same sense as North Quarter, South Quarter etc. But I think we are getting ahead of ourselves here, so let's just keep it simple: Downtowne, Hightowne, Stonemarket, New Market are all districts in their own right.

Solabusca on 20/9/2005 at 10:58

Quote Posted by str8g8

Um, yes. I agree it's getting a bit confrontational. I apologise in advance if I offend anyone.

We've both been getting heated. You have my apologies as well - I chalk it up to both of us being passionate about this, and we're probably going to continue butting heads about it for a bit. Best not to have it get too virulent. I've withdrawn my comment about that particular individual being right.

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Part of the problem is the mission objective: After you get the gate key, proceed to Shalebridge. Between the Sheriff's patrols and the guard post at the main gate, it's not going to be as easy as it sounds. - in ambush, you're sneaking past the patrols in SQ, and the guard post at the Main Gate to get into Shalebridge. Nuisance, innit?

Gah, I'd really, really hate to think that the entirety of the Keepers map exists in the area of the TDS map around Old Quarters giant QU... it'd throw off all of our scaling notes thus far.

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But I think we are getting ahead of ourselves here, so let's just keep it simple: Downtowne, Hightowne, Stonemarket, New Market are all districts in their own right.

So it has been said, so shall it be. Seperate issue, one I'm not going to bring up right now - it may resolve itself...;).

MorbusG on 20/9/2005 at 11:30

It seems we really, really need a new evidence page. *Proper* evidence page. As in html showing maps on the left, and related evidence on the right. I'm onto it fellas, hold on. Because frankly, I don't think it's very easy to see how things work out without actually having the maps in front of you so one is able to twist and turn and place them different ways.

[opinion]
I think the map is crystallizing now. One evidence of it is that if one would begin from the start with empty table, one would end up having pretty much the same looking/same scale map in front of us. Just as it happened to me. Yes, even the river bend (Shoalsgate map easter-egg showing river going E-W)
[/opinion]

@Sola: the G home @ Docks was dictated by your placement of Assassins/keepers map (I'm referring to the map you made earlier), because of the 'Hometurf'-mark on ass assins would be so much to the south, it would be on Docks.

Also the street numbering quote was a mistake from me. I was trying to point out the size of SB in relation to the big amount of quotes we get in the games about that area. It would seem odd for it to be so small area in light of that, and not referred by it's own name in the maps instead of Old quarter.

I understand it seems weird that I've changed my stance about SB, but trust me when I say I've tried just about everything to fit it somewhere in there (Old quarter).

str8g8 on 20/9/2005 at 11:50

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You have my apologies as well

Fair enough. :)

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After you get the gate key, proceed to Shalebridge. Between the Sheriff's patrols and the guard post at the main gate, it's not going to be as easy as it sounds.

Yes, this is the strongest argument for what you are suggesting.

But remember the context of Ambush! however: G has been framed and the patrols out in SQ are are actively looking for him and so on. Once he gets past Old Gate, he has a clear run up Shalebridge Rd to Shalebridge proper. That's basically the current explanation.

(Ironically, it seems that moving the Ambush map down nearer the Docks seems to have weakened the current layout with regard to SB - in it's original location it was much nearer). One way to solve this would be to move it back.

At the end of the day though, it's not up to me, so whatever the balance of opinions dictate, I will be happy to go with.

Quote:

*Proper* evidence page

Sounds interesting :thumb: I look forward to seeing what you come up with. It is a pain having to constantly post links to all the different maps.

cheers
str8g8

Solabusca on 20/9/2005 at 12:06

Quote Posted by str8g8

Fair enough. :)

Good. Ya glaikit taffer. ;P

Quote:

(Ironically, it seems that moving the Ambush map down nearer the Docks seems to have weakened the current layout with regard to SB - in it's original location it was much nearer). One way to solve this would be to move it back.

I was thinking that myself, while looking at the city_map_complete_new03.png file that I saved ages back... you can make a stronger case for the NM/SB/SQ tie, there... but it's still got the 'across the river' problem (unless you posit the smaller river we've already discussed), and it doesn't connect the Cradle with SBRoad, a major sticking point - someone get me an original dev in here so we can bludgeon them with questions (and kindness)!!

As an aside you could get a similar effect if in the map I just mentioned, you took the northern portion of the OQ and made it Shalebridge... but then we still have the problem with the ASSN map, and the problem with having the Cradle so bloody far away from the action.

Quote:

Sounds interesting :thumb: I look forward to seeing what you come up with. It is a pain having to constantly post links to all the different maps.

Well, that's pretty much what the original mandate for this thread was, but it's grown so much that the evidence is buried in the debate. Someone with the skills should set up a 'Mapping out the City' wiki so that we can get the evidence and the problems up in one spot, to allow us to debate more clearly!

.j.

[EDIT: Check yer PM's, str8g8...]

Dark Arrow on 20/9/2005 at 15:24

I really don't have time to go through the 30+ threads about this, so I'll just post it:

Have you considered the possibility that the "Shalebridge" in The Shalebridge Cradle doesn't have anything to do with the location of the cradle, but the residence. Could it be possible that Shalebridge means poor in this situation? I can't really see a more diplomatic solution to it.

Other options:
1. The T3 Old quarter is actually north above the sealed section
2. Shalebridge is between OQ and Auldale. Between second and third bridge from the Ocean.

I don't really like these options.

Regarding the maps by Solabusca:
South Quarter would be in the docks like MorbusG pointed out, if we take the home turf referance to mean SQ.

One thing I don't really like about str8g8 map is the location of the sealed section. I would assume that the roads would not be cut off by the walls of the section. It has been a long time since the section was sealed off after all. Wouldn't the City build major roads to go around the section, instead of forcing people to start using smaller roads to get to the third bridge? Could the sealed section be smaller and inside the small section which is surrounded by the roads near the third bridge?

Solabusca on 20/9/2005 at 15:37

Okay, at str8g8's urging (I'd PM'd him this...), I'm posting (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v739/solabusca/city_map_complete_new03wSolabridge.jpg) an alternate - like Mugla says, take a step back.

<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v739/solabusca/city_map_complete_new03wSolabridge.jpg" alt="Image hosted by Photobucket.com" width=563 height=480>

Now, this particular map still has two problems - one, it posits that SB is part of the Old Quarter, and two, we still have the same issue with the Cradle being way the hell over there when the district is over here.

On the plus side, it does resolve the Ambush/Shalebridge Road issue somewhat, and (if you reaaaaaally zoom in, much more clear on the source map mentioned above), it resolves the NM/SB river issue - with or without the Lost City cutscene resolution.

I've also taken the liberty of adding a few of Purah's areas to the map to replace the former location of SB. (Some of T2X's The Cure can take place just to the west of the Cathedral in the sealed section, too... just extend the walls a little, to make a seperate rectangle just West of it...)

Now, of the two I'm still thinking that my first suggestion (SB south by SQ on the most recent map) is better, but if we revert to the map before the movement of the Ambush map (ie, the map referenced above in Mugla's post), then this becomes a potentially viable solution.

Onto the next poster!

Quote Posted by Dark Arrow

Have you considered the possibility that the "Shalebridge" in The Shalebridge Cradle doesn't have anything to do with the location of the cradle, but the residence. Could it be possible that Shalebridge means poor in this situation? I can't really see a more diplomatic solution to it.

I don't really feel that it's viable, given that the reference doesn't spring up anywhere else in three games. I'm sure if Shalebridge was in common use as an adjective, we'd have heard someone using it ingame. No, it's quite definately a region.

Quote Posted by Dark Arrow

Regarding the maps by Solabusca:
South Quarter would be in the docks like MorbusG pointed out, if we take the home turf referance to mean SQ.

If you'd read the threads, you'd know that I don't believe that Garret is referring to SQ with the 'home-turf' comment. Really, really early on in the thread we have touched upon the idea that Garret has several hidey-holes and safe-houses spread out through the area. Given that he knows that Ramirez's toughboys are looking for him, and may even seek revenge for the night's activities, do you really think he's going to return to a known and compromised location? Once again, as it's only referred to as Home Turf, it could mean anything. He could be referring to the region around Ramirez's as Enemy Turf, and anything else as Home Turf.

Quote Posted by Dark Arrow

One thing I don't really like about str8g8 map is the location of the sealed section. I would assume that the roads would not be cut off by the walls of the section. It has been a long time since the section was sealed off after all. Wouldn't the City build major roads to go around the section, instead of forcing people to start using smaller roads to get to the third bridge? Could the sealed section be smaller and inside the small section which is surrounded by the roads near the third bridge?

Possible, and it could tie into a very old idea of mine positing that Fort Ironwood is the 'main gate' and barricade to the Sealed Section. Just move it south to the back end of the OQ TDS map, and you're covered. But that leaves us with the ASSN map issue.

.j.

[EDIT: Per request, shrunk down as best I can while at work.]