str8g8 on 19/9/2005 at 09:14

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Heh, he's nothing if not entertaining, is he ? ;)

Well, just to set the record straight, in case anyone gets the wrong impression reading these last few pages:

We are not trying to impose a map on anyone.
Quite the contrary in fact. For a start, FM authors are free to ignore the map completely. How could we impose it, even if we wanted to? If they choose to use it however, they have the benefit of being able to situate their work within the overall scheme of all 3 games, without trying to figure all this stuff out independently. And if authors do use it then there will be better continuity between FMs. And in future this information can be incorporated back into the map.

So, far from imposing anything, the map is a community project, made by and for the people who make and play the FMs.

We are not inventing place names
If we do add a couple of things in the future (like the names of the Bridges) then they will be clearly differentiated from the 'canon' material in the final map.

Just wanted to make that clear. :)

cheers
str8g8

Solabusca on 19/9/2005 at 10:53

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Once again, then, it appears we reach that impasse - how can Garret's path in Ambush be justified, especially when it refers to a Shalebridge gate, when Shalebridge is fully north and four subsections (OQ, SM, DT, OQ) and a river away? I'm guessing you're going to have to add bridge there, too. He's going to be running quite a time, dodging patrols all the way through these areas, and coming AWFULLY close to Shoalsgate.

Like I said, I still think the most elegant solution to that problem is the one I've posited - and I've supported it with both in-game notes and dialogue.

What I'd really like is some supporting documentation or in-game transcripts of your own to show why your arrangement is the best, or direct me to where it's been discussed, because the current location of Shalebridge is right out of the realm of possibility as a quick and easy getaway in my eyes.

I'm not trying to be difficult, but I do need some further proofs than 'Well, it can go there 'cause it doesn't mess up my other arrangements' - and right at this moment, that's all I've been able to establish as a reason.

.j.

Solabusca on 19/9/2005 at 12:24

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Please do not use that tactic. You cannot say that your handwaves have more validity, especially considering that the single one of many you've used to cement your view has FOUR sections of the city and a remarkably wide river between the two locations, as well as having Shalebridge (which, as you pointed out, is NE of SQ) to the NORTHWEST. Yours is NOT the obvious answer, and only exists as a result of much trickery, sleight-of-hand, outright handwaving and ignoring information that exists.

I've requested some clarification in how you came to decide it. You've declared that Stonemarket and Downtowne are subsections of the OQ, but somehow find my solution questionable.

Here, once more, is my hard evidence:

1) AMB map - indicates South Quarter has Shalebridge to the NE.

2) AMB Objectives - the final two objectives that open up after reaching your home are as follows:
* Several members of the City Watch are waiting for you in your apartment. You need to find shelter elsewhere and there's no better place than Shalebridge. The only snag - you have to sneak into your home and get the gate key you keep hidden in the secret compartment in your bedroom closet.

* After you get the gate key, proceed to Shalebridge. Between the Sheriff's patrols and the guard post at the main gate, it's not going to be as easy as it sounds. Ed. note: How can someone NOT read this as going through the main gate to Shalebridge? More to the point, given that he's worried about patrols, why would he cross the entire bloody city?

... is it really a handwave to go through the Shalebridge Gate to get to Shalebridge, as opposed to crossing the city?

3) OQ city map in TDS is obviously not the same area as explored in THC - but rather an inhabited area nearby. One of my past suggestions was that Fort Ironwood serves as a buffer between the Barricades and the Old Quarter we know. I'm not putting that forward again, but allow me to point one thing out - the section we explore DOES CONTAIN a building referred to as... the SHALEBRIDGE CRADLE. This section, in my solution, would exist in a fairly straight line NE of South Quarter.

4) Per in-game conversation. Newmarket is supposed to be across *a* river from SB. As in, you walk across the river to Newmarket. Not walk across the river through undead infested areas or another Nobles Quarter (Hightowne) to get to Newmarket. You've handwaved and decided that 'across the river' doesn't really mean across the river - and why would Newmarket be impacted at all, given that Hightowne (a nobles district), is DIRECTLY ACROSS from SB in your map.

5) Garret refers to the canal he dives into in LOST as ... you got it, a River. I've further shown on the TDS map where it is very possible to SEE these rivers.

6) The cutscene at the beginning of LOST indicates that a westward flowing river exists in the area you've deemed Newmarket (Assassins map). Whether it is Lost City or current City is still up for debate, and has not reached general consensus - in either case, it could very well be the river discussed in the servant conversation.

Thus I support my stance. Further evidence, I'm sure, is available.

Now, my friend - what evidence can you provide to support your stance? In your arguement you've had to handwave just about everything - the geography of the River, the name of a street, the existence of a new area to the north of your River bearing the same name as a street in the Old Quarter, the creation of new 'sub-neighbourhoods' around the Assassins map, to the point of absorbing an established Quarter from TDS, and the fact that two areas that are supposedly near enough to cross to are instead several neighbourhoods apart.

My solution only requires that the area around Shalebridge Road be called... Shalebridge.

Tell me where I'm incorrect. Tell me where I've had to repeatedly and constantly handwave by playing with the geography of the area.

.j.

[ADDENDUM: On the nature of Shalebridge Road - why would you have the section of the city referred to as Shalebridge QUITE SO FAR AWAY from a road bearing the same name, especially one near a bridge that we can infer may be SHALEBRIDGE iteself? Now your fudge not only necessitates creating a road and a district, but also necessitates coming up with a reason that it be called SHALEBRIDGE district in the first place. Which means you've have to add another bridge to the equation - wheras with the location as I suggest it only has one 'fudge', and is a conceit that you use several times in your map with your decisions re: the Assassins map and the neighbourhoods of HT and NM.

Therefore - a list of your 'fudges' must be expanded to include all of them.

1) There's a road in the OQ that is called Shalebridge
2) The OQ is a sprawling area made up of several small neighbourhoods - Stonemarket, Downtown, The Barricades and undefined areas that sprawl down the entire west side of the City - which, in and of itself has no basis in in-game canon. It actually counters in-game information, to wit:
3) Stonemarket is PART OF the Old Quarter, in spite of the fact that it exists whole-sale on it's own in TDS.
4) Shalebridge is found to the N-NW of South Quarter, but has nothing else in common with the road named after it in the Old Quarter.
5) The River curves to allow SB to be 'across the river' from NM, even though it's across the river from OQ and HT in this case. Remember, we have absolutely NO IN-GAME BASIS for this, beyond your sense of aesthetics and desire to twist geography to suit your needs.

My 'fudge' does not entail ignoring or handwaving a wide range of known information, nor does it entail creating a new area or even including a bend in the river that, while aesthetically pleasing, has no root in in-game knowledge.

It merely suggests that the area around Shalebridge Road (upon which the cradle rests), is referred to as Shalebridge.]

str8g8 on 19/9/2005 at 16:13

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Well, I think you have glossed over a few points there, Sol, so just to be fair:


Check, this is consistent with both maps.


That's a good point. But see my earlier post regarding the way Shalebridge is marked on the map with arrows, inidicating some distance between the gate and Shalebridge (ie. "This way to Shalebridge")


Check, that seems to be the consensus. But it doesn't relate to the matter in hand either way.


Check, both maps would show this (with different rivers being the one in question). All the evidence you provide to proove that the river\canal in Assassins! is a river is irrelevant, we know it's a river, that isn't the problem.


With respect, it doesn't just require this, it requires that we ignore the fact that the T3 City Map and the Keeper map and the Assassin map all miss out this particular nugget.

On to our fudges:

Shalebridge Road is not a fudge, it is documented - check the Ambush map - we have inferred where it might extend, while you are implying we just made it up!

I don't have a problem with it sprawling. You're the only one here who has expressed this opinion. And how does moving Shalebridge stop it sprawling? It doesn't.


This is not necessary for our layout, it was idle speculation on my part, that's all. Stonemarket can be a Quarter in it's own right just as easily - it's your posiiton that rests solely on the possibility of sub-sections etc.


Whoa there. This was part of the gradual evolution of the map, in fact I think you can trace the bend back to Mugla initially ... so don't try and make this personal, ok? If we make it personal we will never agree. However, I take your point ... it is a little "creative". :)

In short, you may be right (now I've said it, can you do the same I wonder?)

As Mugla said, it seems a valid option at this point in time ... but let's wait and see what kind of consensus emerges.

cheers
str8g8

Dark Arrow on 19/9/2005 at 18:30

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I think I'll stick my head in on this:

1. I'm not sure that the Ambush map shows that Shalebridge is far away. The arrows could be pointing to the center of the district. I assumed that Shalebridge is beyond that gate, but I see the difficulty of it being there as I look at the maps.

2. Is the Hag's map considered non canon? This is mainly because of the location of the docks receptable. The mark seems to be in the center of the district instead of being near the ocean as it should. Or does the marks in the map show the center of the district?

3. I don't think Downtown is part of OQ. If I remember correctly, the keeper's map shows a wall between OQ and Downtown, so I think they were seperated atleast 200-50 years ago in the City's history.

Do you have a map of your own Solabusca? I'm getting a feeling you are referring to a map you have done, but I can't seem to find it.